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  • New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 07. 2010 23:43

thebeing
I'm a newcomer to the game, so treat my advice with an extra pinch of salt. I played a
year or two ago to first CA level, now started again from beginning and almost back there.
This post, on second glance, is somewhat offtopic so I'll make it into a new thread.. was
originally in response to "what to choose EMDEN or Koenigsberg" but I derailed myself. The
post isn't in a logical order either, bit of a mindflow combined with returning to fix/add
things I mindflowed on earlier :P

I'd want to hear some advice, comments on my reasoning, etc.. just some generic discussion.

--
I chose not to pick Spaehkreuzer as the main attraction seems to be in the remodel which
counts as a CL, has 6.75" dual gun instead of the Z99 dual 5.9" (available two levels
earlier) but two barrels less of them in total.. but only if you have higher level
gunners. By the time you have those, you can have a koenigsberg too, even if you level a
second BO (or close). The SpaehD40 is also a bigger (and I suspect slower) target than the
Z99 so the DP advantage it has is diminished.. yet it also has higher HE/AP defense and I
have no clue how those work.

So I went with Z31, didn't remodel it to save on cash, didn't sell my old ships as I
upgraded (keeping it as an option in case I ran out of creds in future), loved the z99..
played blitz a lot, got credits, bought Emden for Anti-air, started second BO, took same
ship path (the Spaehkreuzer path still doesn't seem useful, and this way I could save
money again). The Z31 wasn't very enjoyable, much like Z1 before it wasn't. This can of
course be due to lack of experience.. I also used auto FCS for those two, with Z99 I
started using aiming FCS (the longer ranged guns let me keep ships on one side of me or
outside retaliation range easier, thus less work for my fingers).

Didn't even start using the Emden right away as I didn't have the level 30 AA gunners yet.

AA in great battles is great exp, but I found my credits and points lacking. The
credits/exp ratio of blitzkrieg is better than great battles as is the points/exp, in
case you have trouble affording a new ship by the time your BO level reaches it, or your
crew is threatening to overlevel before you have the points to upgrade them all. These
problems can of course be solved by loans/gifts from strangers/friends, but personally I
don't like feeling indebted to anyone (I feel indebted even if you give gifts), hence my 2
BO approach.

Blitz battles also have less waiting time and are over faster than Great Battles, so while
you can get 10k+ xp from AAing in GB, you could maybe do two Blitzes in the same time and
get 10k credits.

Small _napkin math_ session:
How big should the credits/exp ratio be to be able to afford next ships, when you have
level 28 BO, Emden and spent all your credits on that Emden?

Assumptions off the top of my head: You win 50% of the time. AAing in GB gives you 10k xp
per win, 1k per loss, so an average of 5.5k exp. You add 25% on top of ship hull price to
get engines, weapons etc. Not using Premium so no exp/credit bonus for games lasting over
5 minutes.

Required exp, credits, games to level up, credits needed per game:
Koenigsberg
-21543 exp, 201.25k creds, 4 games, 50.3k credits per game
M Project
-142733 exp, 281.25k creds, 26 games, 10.8k credits per game
Type II SS
-142733 exp, 337.5k creds, 26 games, 12.9k credits per game
Admiral Hipper
-401503 exp, 980k creds, 73 games, 13.4k credits per game
Deutschland
-492003 exp, 770k creds, 90 games, 8.6k credits per game

Now, even keeping in mind this is just napkin math, the common suggestion of going for AA
in Great Battles to gain credits for your next ships just doesn't seem right, if you want
to use those ships as soon as you are able to. If my assumption of average 5.5k exp per
game is anywhere near correct it definitely looks like you can't get the required amount
of credits. This can be alleviated to an extent by selling your old ship of course, most
notably for the Koenigsberg.

From my memory the highest amount of credits I've gotten from a match was some 2.5k
credits from shooting down planes and then 5k or thereabouts. That's a winning match where
I did especially well. There are plenty of the matches where I don't get to shoot down
more than a few planes, if any at all so it'll be relying on shared exp/credits.

Also from my memory, Blitz seems to have around 1/1 ratio of exp/credits, the napkin math
above would require AA in GB to have 1/2 or worse exp/credits ratio, and I just don't see
it happening, not with an Emden at any rate.

--
atm have level 40 gunners (1 game from 41 :P), 39 AA gunners, 38+27 BOs, assorted
engineers,repairers at levels 15-35, scout at 36 and a sonarman at 30 (for use with AA
emden+depth charges) and am not using Premium subscription.

I find it quite surprising that my gunners aren't that much higher than my higher BO,
because I've kept them in the support/T slots even when I did AA with the Emden apart from
a few games. I'll probably put AA gunners to rest from my non-AA ships once they reach
level 42 and the second awesome (or so I hear) KM AA gun set.

--

With my heaviest crew (even if it makes no sense, just for testing purposes) the Emden
with the level 30 AA guns in R slots, depth charge launchers in T slots, the speed is
39/48 and there is 697 displacement left to use on armor/whatnot. using full displacement
lowers the speed to 36/44. I went with DD Finder I FCS, as accuracy revision doesn't (to
me at least) matter as much for anti-air. Could go with SS FCS for an extra 170 tons of
displacement to use, but it doesn't (for me at least) improve speed so I picked the DD
Finder as it has biggest search range of available FCS. This will let me spot torpedoes
earlier, even if it doesn't help with spotting subs (not sure on this, read a bit
conflicting info and haven't tested myself).. thus increases my survivability at least as
much as adding bulge would, but with no speed drawback.

Z99 with same crew (minus one support) has 38/51 speed and 71 tons of displacement to use
on armor/whatnot. I actually had to remove torp launcher for crew to fit, but the crew is
10+ levels above, so I guess that's fair.. even at-level, the z99 has very little
displacement to use on anything else.
--

Just bought myself an M Project, still working Blitz for credits/points (most of my points
will soon be eaten up by heavy gunner upgrades) in preparation of the first CA. Seems very
similar in gameplay to what I had with the Z99 and as Z99 was such a lovely ship the 12
level "grind" between these two ships didn't feel too big. The diminished exp from having
high level crews doesn't kick in significantly before you've got dozens of levels higher
crew anyway.

So, imo, buy Emden as it will remain a good AA ship to the end, skip koenigsberg because
the Z99 can substitute for it until you get to the M Project.

The M Project you can run with triple 5.9" (which are below-level guns even!) or if you
really really want range the double 6.75". I tested both briefly now and aiming the 6.75"
becomes tricky as my BO isn't anywhere near to being able to mark the 6.75" long range
shots, even the triple 5.9" longest range shots aren't marked, and in Blitz taking
advantage of range can be a bit troublesome. The further you shoot the worse the spread,
combined with having small targets (DD&CL) you're not going to get a whole lot of attack
if you utilise range to the max. Triples give 50% more shells and their base fire rate is
also around 20% better.

M project has some quirky T slot firing arcs so the AA power of it leaves something to be
desired. Compared to the Emden it's also slow with the triple guns you'll be going nearer
to 32 knots cruising speed, which isn't enough to keep up with ships you'd want to escort
(BBs) since an AA/ASW escort covers vastly more distance than the BB it escorts.. well, at
least I find myself darting here and there to get in range of planes that are in scouting
range of the BB but outside my AA gun range. Plus whenever you're firing at enemy planes,
you _need_ to do some evasive maneuvering if you're the only ship in sight. Way too often
I forget and get one volleyed, especially troublesome if you want to be a forward screen
(this would be ideal for ASW).

Using AA guns on R slots, like the Emden, probably would give more speed but as the
general consensus seems to be the Emden is the best AA CL around, why would you want to do
that?


---

I'm starting to get distracted now, and having edited that post from a lot of places I've
lost my thread of thought. Maybe this was pointless, maybe not. Bit of a new players
perspective into early Navy Field/Kriegsmarine?
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  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 26. 2010 21:42

thebeing
>Um, you can't class your sailors past 24. Keep them neutral
>or roll a new set of neutrals to run the FFY. Overall, once you hit
>24 class them up to prevent you making a set of very good but now
>utterly useless neutral sailors.

Yup I know. I've just leveled those extra crews to 12 so far and left
them unclassed/nationed. They're of no use to me at this moment
so keeping them at 12 won't ruin any future plans, and allows me to
sell them to anyone if I just class them.

Rolled "disposable" crews of a 14 pot (and random other attribs) BO
and 10/10 gunners to act as the crew on FFY while rest are level 1-11
neutrals or 12-25ish nation sailors. That's the plan anyway.

Come to think of it, if the FFY can be operated with a nation sailor I could
ditch the neutral sailor I'm using as BO and have an extra training slot
even. At least the DD-02 can be operated with a KM armament sailor
(just tested).

Short length of targeting lines shouldn't matter too much,
the intention is to keep auto FCS, since it provides a less stressful
gameplay focusing just on dodging and seeing how much attack I get
before going down :D

>You can spend up to 6 hours rolling sailors but you could miss a few
>good ones when you roll past something due to fatigue and nerves.
>No worries mate. You'll be at a level where you will no longer be a newbie.

Rolling does get tricky at times, that's why I don't do the 6 hours at a time
sessions. An hour or so at a time, while multitasking something else. I also
try to consciously slow down on my clicking, sometimes using the left hand
even. Rolled past a few 15 potential crews but nothing worse comes to
mind.

>P.S
>Please refrain from a wall of text. My head hurts from scanning.

But then I'd have to do three or four posts in row.. It would look like
padding my post count, not that it matters. I at least _try_ to use paragraphs.
I never intend to do a wall of text, it's just the way things end up.

--

Do sailors in HQ count against the maximum crew limit (50?)?

--

Boosted my other gunner now.. a couple of weeks before the next premium
sailor event prize.. I'll just have to live with my gunners not being balanced
until then. The reload difference I can disable with setting simultaneous
shooting mode on anyway, should I find it annoying to only fire half my guns
at a time. They're level 57 now so I can't stick around in blitz for too long.

Thankfully my credits are finally starting to look good, 4 levels for BO to go
for next ship and only missing 140k credits (compared to ~250k exp). Even
less considering some of my creds are tied in armour.

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 25. 2010 18:17

lanthanide
Um, you can't class your sailors past 24. Keep them neutral or roll a new set of
neutrals to run the FFY. Overall, once you hit 24 class them up to prevent you
making a set of very good but now utterly useless neutral sailors.

Since I do not have a KM line, (I'll make one soon, I promise. Maybe after I get
BB/CV6?) I only have generic information to share.

You can spend up to 6 hours rolling sailors but you could miss a few good ones
when you roll past something due to fatigue and nerves. No worries mate. You'll be
at a level where you will no longer be a newbie.

Lanthanide

P.S
Please refrain from a wall of text. My head hurts from scanning.

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 25. 2010 12:02

thebeing
Time for some more data, trying to puzzle out how xp/credits/points are
awarded. Maybe it'll be useful for someone to benchmark against what I've
been doing too, who knows.

Deutschland
Lvl 45 11"/52 SK C/28, 4 binds of HHE ammo
lvl 32 AA guns on T slots
level 55 gunners, 11/11 base, not boosted, 100ish vets and 70ish experts
at start. data ended with lvl 57 gunners, same vets, 130 extra experts (100
of them for only last 5 games or so, gotten via the event).
0.4 deck and belt, around 30 bulge.

Why HHE? 50% more listed damage over LHE, and my BO can't spot the
longest range shots for even that..

40 games played in Blitz, 22 wins and 18 losses.

In total I earned 287k credits, 132k exp, 159k points, ending up with averages
of around 7.2k creds, 3.3k exp and 4k points per game.

Won games:
5774-12087 credits, average of 9.4k
2500-6766 exp, average of 4.9k
3700-7260 points, average of 5.4k

Lost games:
1552-3814 credits, average of 2.8k
714-2131 exp, average of 1.3k
1121-4165 points, average of 2.2k

Can one draw a conclusion from this that points are least dependant on being
on the winning team(3.4multiplier on creds, 3.8 multiplier on exp, 2.5 on points)?
One must keep in mind that being on the losing team means your ship was sunk
and at CA or higher this costs you credits.. with the Deutschland a sunk ship
costs 1170 credits, making the new multiplier (between losing and winning)
a lot higher, up to 5.8. Damaged ships cost some to repair too so that'd only
happen if you took no damage. Ammo also costs of course but the price is
negligible and at any rate should affect both wins and losses similarly.

Then on to more interesting parts.. How are credits/points/exp awarded?
I don't see a direct correlation between my rewards and amount of attack,
sunken tonnage, team attack or amount of players. The rewards generally
seem higher with more of those, but it almost seems like there's some
random number generating involved. That or accidentally hitting friends and
the penalty from that is making this extra difficult, it's not something I could
really track during these games. Some games also had me shoot a plane or
two down.. Blargh, too difficult. If anyone wants I can try to put my data
somewhere on the net. collected 'win?', 'my ship sunk?', attack, tonnage,
team attack, credits, exp, points and players.

Incidentally, there was only one won game where I sank. That's a good sign
about keeping in range, right?
---
Applying those extra 100 vets on my gunners today really helped their spread.
It's still somewhat shotgun but based on the games I've played since then
it's helping me get more attack, all of them were over the average I had for
these 40 games (12.5k).

Was a little bit disappointed with the Bayern because it's so damn slow..
23/31 knots at full displacement, 28/38 with nothing but gunners. Can it even
undock like that? At least it doesn't need a BO and as such has 6 slots usable
for leveling crew. Could replace M Project in the leveling curve..

I think I'll level my crews up with a neutral ship though, up to 25 or so. From
that one could go to Bayern without a significant loss in xp gained for sailors.
Frigate X and Y respectively can be used to level crews right from level 1,
21 and 23 level difference between ship and crew at most, 37/24% xp gains
is plenty enough to get those initial 150-300xp levels, then the xp gains
increase.

I've been rolling crews semi-actively while watching stuff on tv. Can't believe
how hard it is to get a 12 torp guy, still only have one.. The hardest crew of them
all seems to be fighter pilots though, ideally I'd want a 11/12 fighter/bomber
base ability. (well, ideally 12/12 but I inserted some realism to my idealism).
Even getting that 12 bomber ability is hard.. I did get a 12/11 fighter/bomber
though, so I guess I'll keep that. Apparently bomber ability is more important,
which is why I value it higher.. and as KM we get +2 fighter ability already, making
a single base point worth slightly less than for nationalities that don't get it.

Well, I'll have plenty of time to keep rolling crews and hoping for those
awesome FP ones.

Some other crews I've rolled at my leisure:
3x 11/11 gunners, 10/10/12 engineer, 14 pot/11fig/11bomb seaman-to-be, two
11/11 repairers, bunch of others.

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 24. 2010 14:34

OttoReinhold
Ok, I had sold my Emden so I tested it with Deutschland in GB2. Can still quite easily get
over 20k credits per game by simply AA-whoring around. This is creds for downed fighters
plus reward after match. Of course I use KM40 AA guns for it.

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 21. 2010 10:14

thebeing
Some more diary stuff and observations..

Finally got my second BO to level 47 when I got frustrated with a long streak
of losing games.. Gave up, fitted MPro with AA (the level 42 AA guns) and depth
charges for ASW, went to GB2. Had some really awesome games where I
downed lots of planes.. yet my record credit amount listed in game was only
6700.. I say "only" because I'm now wondering if that 20-30k credits
OttoReinhold said is possible. It is also my vague memory from when I played
a year or two ago that AA gave more credits.. could be mistaken though, my
memory is bad and I've read so much about AA being good for credits that
I may have confused the memory of reading about that into a memory of doing it.

Highest single credit plane I managed to shoot down so far has been 230
credits. To get that 20k credits I'd need to shoot down 87 of them.. sounds
a bit unrealistic to shoot 87 of any kind of plane down, never mind the highest
credit ones.

Well anyway.. sold my Admiral Hipper which I was never quite happy with..
Spreads were bad, range wasn't that big, damage about same on paper as
the MPro with triples.. and bought a Deutschland with the credits. After a couple
of games I already like it a lot more.. reload is horrid with 11" guns, but spread
isn't as bad as I had feared.. and when a shell lands, it actually deals some
damage. But most of all I finally get enough range to use that range advantage
in Blitz. A few short tries in GB2 left me feeling it's still not enough for that place
but at least the Deutschie gets a reasonable AA battery of 4 guns a side, and
placed close together. I've gotten used to running R slot AA boats so a usable
T slot setup is refreshing. The MPro kinda had that but annoying shooting arcs.


With sunken Deutsch and lost Blitz, credit gain is about 100 creds.. victories are
of course much nicer, so the average should still be good.. haven't collected a
lot of data on that yet, played a lot so taking a break for today. Have to be
careful not to burn out and ruin my chances at the grand prize for the month!

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 20. 2010 10:39

OttoReinhold
I used to do some 20-30k credits per round in my Emden a few months ago. Well in good
rounds rounds at least. Back then everyone was playing GB1 games which was limited to 6
CV per game. Added bonus was the much higher probability to gain experts when downing
fighters.

Can't be arsed to use it anymore though as it's low level doesn't help getting good XP for
the grind to higher levels. But may be I'll check later if it's still possible to get that
much credits with it.

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 19. 2010 18:44

aodwildcat
ya all your support sailors will seem useless untill you get into the bb lvl, then they
will kick in and be just as important (or more important) then your gunners and bo.

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 19. 2010 18:22

thebeing
Bit of a diary entry now..

Moved back to M Project after trying out the Hipper. The longer reload and
much worse spread of the 8"/60 SK C/34 doubles just doesn't let me deal
damage. My gunners are now level 51 with 90-100 vets each, with basically
no experts and not boosted. Spread on 5.9" triples is a lot nicer, so even if
end up dying horribly for having to be so much closer, I still end up dealing
more damage. Had a couple 35k attack games recently.

PCLs were the bane of my Hipper. Couldn't hope to hit them and they have
similar firepower as me, plus have no trouble hitting me. By the end of the
week I should have my very own Bayern though, to test out that side of
the game too. The 'every day party event' is looking pretty sexy.

It annoys me that the ship class you use seems to matter more than how
well you actually do.. so using that Hipper might still be faster for leveling
and earning cash and points, simply because it gets some ship class
multiplier to earnings. Or so it seems anyway.

I also read elsewhere how someone makes 40k xp at level 60 (or was it
80?) per game. Made me laugh a bit when based on that guys post I should
be leveling up every 3 fights or so at my level. Feeling a fair bit slower at the
moment though, especially as 151% xp time is over.

A big annoyance for my anti-air career is fighter scouts. 5-10 high level fighters
are really really hard to shoot down, especially if they're being micromanaged
to change their altitude all the time. Frustrates the hell out of me, it's hard to
maneuver ship to avoid enemy and friendly fire while keeping in golden range
of enemy planes (who constantly change location) and aiming the guns. I
dread the introduction of t4 fighters...

I need to develop more situational awareness, I often find myself drifting into
the middle of enemy fleet, taking fire from all directions.. because I focused too
much on killing a single ship and didn't want to change sailing direction to
keep it in range/aim.

Have 4 engineers and 3 repairers at levels 36-38.. they still seem pretty much
useless. Only support sailor that I actually noticed a difference with was the
sonarman on a CL, for obvious reasons. But since I don't play outside Blitz
much, it doesn't come into play. And since I already have a CA, by the time
I move out of Blitz (to BB/CA rooms?) that sonarman won't be useful anyway.

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 14. 2010 23:42

Verfallen
dont worry its normal to have lots of question.

but rather than post blocks of text, try to find an experienced KM player that is willing
to help you through the line.

Personnaly, i never refused knowledge to someone willing to learn.

I'll bash noobs over the head with their idiocy till they get common sense, but when they
turn around and want to learn, I'll answer their question at best I can.

What you must know is lately range has been lessened in blitz. The map is so small BBs can
prolly reach the opposite spawn point from theirs.

That made the previously dumb choice of 5.9 an acceptable one, as you start fighting at
mid range pretty much.

I do however think the 8" and 11" can be used well and beat the 5.9 if you have good
gunner. Thing is you need to capitalize on the first few minutes of blitz where you have
somewhat of a battleline to dish lots of damage from range, before you start getting
rushed by brooks as you cant run far.

KM 8" hit hard enough tough and sports a good reload. Its the Dland that will struggle a
bit. Its now easy to corner one. While it can in a full sized map keep its massive range
easily, its much trickyer with the player and torpedo saturated hobbit war map.

So be sure you have decent gunners. The 3x11" C/28 sports a nice accuracy revision of +25,
unless im mistaken. At any rate, at level gunners can use them quite well so long as they
are BVE. Since you only have 2 guns with slower reload than most CA, you need to be able
to rely on them having a manageable spread.

The PS line has a nice AA battery to (insert word of your choice here) up BW cv in blitz
tough. The 3.46 works well out of the box.

You didnt choose the easiest nation to start back on, as it rely a lot on subtlety and you
play close to a line that is the difference between being pwned and pwning. Go over it,
you get pwned. Stay too far, you get average results at best.

If however you do manage it, you'll come back out as a quite decent player indeed, and the
other nation will seem easy to you.

  • Re : New player musings on Kriegsmarine (walloftext)

    07. 14. 2010 08:34

thebeing

>I am still downloading the game with 45 min to go. I can tell
>this will take a while to learn how to play this game properly.
>Thanks for the info.

I've been accused of overanalysing things.. you can definitely
play and enjoy the game with less thought put into it than I do.
Might even do better than me, focusing on having fun instead of
getting bogged down by minutiae.
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