So, where is this list of things to be done?

If you care about SN AA, it should be in last priority in term of worse.
Go see USN AA, they are broken.

And it's not hard to understand that some guns should not have AA shells, and some guns
must not be used as comparison.

In fairness a lot of the blame lies with SDE and TNF for this new format.

In the new format you get given strict deadlines and a list as long as your arm of things
they can't (or more likely won't) do. You are then expected to make balancing changes
without any kind of idea what will be implemented and how well it will be implemented.

You CAN'T look at the bigger picture at a later date and expect to fine tune. Everything
must be done at once expecting that you will get one patch and you have to make sure it
makes sense. Every ship must have a weakness and can't be the best at everything.

This new testing team is basically SDE's way of saying we get a say and it's our fault
whereas they do their least to support it and expect TNF to tell us it is brilliant.

But hey, this is all we will get. Its basically half as much gets done as in ONF and
there is no participation because TNF is so fake about the whole thing... The only way to
get this project working is to appoint a community member to the joint-head position and
he is privy to all information relating to the project and all information can be released.

In this format, we (the people expected to do the work) have no contact with SDE and are
reliant on people who can EASILY be pressured by SDE for answers. That is not the way to
run a test team. So in summary, it isn't all your fault Angus, but a lot of the ideas put
forward are just not realistic or sensible.

"If someone tells you that you must balance the H39 better and someone comes up
with the idea of giving it H44 range do you do it because it is the only idea you have?

You can't just make a decision for the sake of making it without thinking about it. This
patch has been stupidly put together due to inexperience and someone
overpromoting themself with their own agenda. That is my opinion, agree with it or
disagree with it at your discretion."

I agree, I have discussed most SN BB balance at length with mailman, LJ, and others.
Unfortunately my ideas were very rough, and I did not consider the balance of some
other ships (especially KM), when I discussed them. My original goals was to first
change them roughly to where we want them, then fine tune each ship; it obviously
didn't happen when SDE announced the balancing deadline.


"SN needs to be 2nd in range (behind KM), with average damage, the lowest speed
and turning force."

KM has 2 sets of guns for both BB2 and BB3, and both the lower ranged sets of
those guns are out ranged by other nations. Is that something that needs changing
also? I agree with the rest of of that sentence though if the range is closer to KM
than to other nations. If it's significantly less than KM, then it also should have good
damage.


"Ideally, the BB5 should be 37. But again, the gunsets are messed up; The difference
in gunrange between low (Montana) and high (H44) is far smaller than at BB6 or
even BB4. Thus, the only way you can balance them without them being clones
would be to make the ship VERY slow (35 with the Quads, 37 with the Trips) give the
Trips 2 pixels less than H44 range, quads between Montana and SY/L2, and give
them the lowest turning ratio."

I can't seem to find the PM right now, but if I remember correctly, MM denied giving
the quads low range and low speed.

"but I cant see
how any of you can say even one bad word about
someone who is active from the start and is trying his
best to do what he think is right"

Trying his best is fair enough and thanks to him. But doing his best is obviously not
working is it? i.e his best is not good enough for this particulat task. Splid is right
this is heading for disaster.

i'm saying half SN AA capable guns have worst stats of all nations, other half is a bit
balanced by longer range + bigger AA dmg + decent/good muzzle speed, but slower
rld. while first
batch has everything worse than any nation: slowest muzzle speed + rld(it's KINDA
decent, when not looking at other stats) + low/est AA shell dmg, but decent range.

thing is with first batch: you can't spam, you can't snipe, nor you can kill with 1 hit.
now, where does muzzle speed kicks in?
yeah we aa players aim in front of the planes shadows, predict flying patterns and
heights and know our angles, but when your shells can't reach planes at the right
time cause they are too slow? I played US, IJN(my love=best AA), KM, MN and i
haven't seen such slow(hanging AA shells in the air), that's why i'm worried,
reasonable? combine it with low dmg...
I'm happy that they looked into my moaming about T slots, maxim gorkyj can have
11 binds of ammo for "good" miniznis, svetlana is now loaded with ammo too.
Tripples are more AA friendly since buff in rld, but still dmg remains the same as dual
6"...
oh and i advice to test dual 6"/45 Pattern 1892 (longest range SN AA guns, GA
somewhere bit above 25, sadly gun's max angle is 25)

There are some gun which should not even carry AA shells, and should not even be
consider as AA gun.
Crapload of MN and SN guns are able to carry, even their retarded gun angle, such
as 40 degree- 45 degree .

Simply, because no one takes the effort to start balancing them yet. And by real
balance, I dont refer to look at less than few testing and send them to request.
A real balance, takes time.

Muzzle velocity means jack squat. To show you an analogy, go take H44 16,5 and 18.

The 18'' has faster muzzle velocity but its hangtime 100% match with 16,5'' for a
same range.


The idea of comparing ''should not be aa gun'' to standard AA guns(i.e. IJN DP, MN
3,5''?, etc.) is irrational.

Hell, we can talk months about it, It is like comparing UK 4'' RF vs pom pom, RP10,
and god knows rp10 and pom pom outperform 4''.

Same goes for IJN the dual 4,7'' and triple 6' comparing to 3'' ijn which is irrationnal.

Same goes for KM 40 vs NLD 3,46''.

SN have great AA, not to confuse by useable.

"Oh, and anyone that complains/whines about the 45 degree angle being overall worse
than guns with a lower angle than 40 doesn't know what they are talking about. Angles
are a double edged sword, but for a skilled player (which is what you assume when
balancing), high angle > low angle (overall)."
^
This. People are too RN oriented these days and think the Fictory is the only way.
I played US lines twice, and I am still loving its 45 degrees guns.


"talks about SN AA capable guns... and everyone missed to look at muzzle speed...
in other words, ~half SN AA capable guns has slowest muzzle speed, also most of
such guns have low AA dmg shells, now add up at least 1.5+ s (fastest rld of SN dual
AA capable guns) and do the match. but i'll get ignored again, so good luck.:"

So basically what you want is that every single nation to have uber KM/MN AA. I see it now.

SN does not have the trait of best AA, so why bother anyway. Muzzle velocity is the
least influencial factor contributing to AA anyway.
I experimented with SN AA in AA training missions, and they work very well. Much much
better than RN or US, so I don't know what you are talking about. It has decent range,
average reload and nifty shell damage. I frankly don't know what you are whining about
saying SN AA need a buff.

Honestly, just reading your last sentence annoys me so much. Instead of having some
common sense of understanding that every nation has weaknesses, you assume it SN is
a uber nation with uber AA. Get over it. It doesn't.

____________

Regarding thread:

I don't mind the Hipper part that much. However, ranging OProII, H39 and Gnissy seems
wrong.

talks about SN AA capable guns... and everyone missed to look at muzzle speed...
in other words, ~half SN AA capable guns has slowest muzzle speed, also most of
such guns have low AA dmg shells, now add up at least 1.5+ s (fastest rld of SN dual
AA
capable guns) and do the match.
but i'll get ignored again, so good luck.

"And just one question out of pure curiosity for Lj and Splid. Was you two in the ONF
which
did the BB34AA patch? 0=)"

We were in ONF, we didn't agree with the patch, and we said it was far from finished.
The BB3's were a mess, and the BB4's had bugs which we had to fix, and some are still
to be fixed.

SN needs to be 2nd in range (behind KM), with average damage, the lowest speed and
turning force.

The 12" gunset should be removed from the BB4. It can't be balanced without breaking
the other 12" guns, and leaving them as they are isn't an option.

Ideally, the BB5 should be 37. But again, the gunsets are messed up; The difference in
gunrange between low (Montana) and high (H44) is far smaller than at BB6 or even
BB4. Thus, the only way you can balance them without them being clones would be to
make the ship VERY slow (35 with the Quads, 37 with the Trips) give the Trips 2 pixels
less than H44 range, quads between Montana and SY/L2, and give them the lowest
turning ratio.

BB6; Obviously 35, between Nebraska and Kaiser range, worst turning ratio.


------------

Oh, and anyone that complains/whines about the 45 degree angle being overall worse
than guns with a lower angle than 40 doesn't know what they are talking about. Angles
are a double edged sword, but for a skilled player (which is what you assume when
balancing), high angle > low angle (overall).