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  • U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 12:42 PST


Invinciblor
Unterseeboot Mannschaft Anweisungen

Willkommen bei der Kriegsmarine, Kommandant. Stellen sie ihre Mannschaft zusammen und treten den U-Booten der NFNA bei.

This is a guide for players starting their first SS crew. It does not set out to answer the more esoteric questions about true ability caps and the like. What it does is provides insight into which decisions are important to get right early on, and hopefully lets you see which decisions can be safely delayed. Mistakes in building a crew can take a lot of time to fix, and players often ask for advice so they don't make those mistakes. This is that advice.

(The guide itself is below.)

 

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 12:42 PST


Invinciblor
As with any ship line, you always want to build for the future. When leveling a sub crew, you will want to have at least one extra BO and a pair of gunners so you can level up crew on gunships. It works best if you're also leveling a BB crew, or if you've already got a gunship crew leveled far enough to keep up with your SS crew as it grows. Leveling extra sailors on a submarine is difficult and unwise.


A bit of generic advice about elites and boosting:

Elites cost roughly the same as premium boosts. The difference is that a boost gives you far more stat gain than using an elite sailor will. However, a boost can be applied at any level, while you can only choose whether to use an elite sailor at the start. If you're only going to pay for one or the other, get a premium boost. If you think you might use both, decide now.


The numbers:

SS1 (L37): BO, 2 T-slot sailors, 1 R-slot sailor, 2 support sailors
SS2 (L46): BO, 2 T-slot sailors, 1 R-slot sailor, 3 support sailors
SS3 (L59): BO, 2 T-slot sailors, 1 R-slot sailor, 3 support sailors
SS4 (L74): BO, 2 T-slot sailors, 2 R-slot sailors, 3 support sailors
SS5 (L95): BO, 2 T-slot sailors, 1 R-slot sailor, 5(?) support sailors



About T-slot sailors:

- The torpedo stat is the only stat that makes your torpedoes reload faster. The reload stat does nothing (it's only for gunners).
- Repair and restore are important to all sub sailors, because you don't have as much room as bigger ships for actual repairmen. Because you get enough torpedo stat from classing as a torpedo man, repair/restore stats are actually more important when rolling a new sailor for your torpedo men than torpedo is. Try for 10 in torpedo and 11/11 or 12/10 repair/restore (or use elite repairmen!).
- I recommend delay-classing your torpedo men until level 44. At level 12, class them as KM sailors, but DO NOT class them to armament sailor yet. Wait until level 44, then class to armament sailor, then to gunner, then to heavy torpedo. Keep them there. They will still reach the torpedo reload speed cap easily, and they will have much more repair/restore ability.
- SS1 has front torpedo tubes and a rear minelayer. Minelayer ammunition must be bought with olives, if you wish to use it. Most players don't.
- SS2 and up has front and rear torpedo tubes.
- Some players advocate using a repairer or restorer on the aft T-slot, because aft weapons are less necessary than the forward tubes. Most players use a torpedo man on the aft slot though.



About R-slot sailors:

- The SS1, 2, 3 and 5 have a single forward deck gun. SS4 has one fore deck gun and two aft.
- SS1/2/3/5 are commonly run without gunners, using repairers and/or a restorer instead. If you run these ships with a gunner, be careful to level each of your gunners equally so they don't get apart in level. As a general rule, gunner pairs should be kept together, making SS gunners cumbersome to manage.
- SS4's guns are more useful, but it's still fairly common to see SS4 crews without gunners.
- If you have a gunship BO and gunners for KM already (and you should, to help with leveling crews) you can level supports and have the option to switch between a gunner and a repairer/restorer for the R-slots.



About support sailors:

- A planesman is very important. While they are not required per se, you are seriously disadvantaged without one. Dive time is limited by air supply, and the planesman's skill reduces the time the sub needs to replenish its air supply. Without a planesman, you start each battle with empty air tanks (which fill very slowly without a planesman). The higher his potential stat the better. If you've got olives to spare, an elite sailor here is not a bad idea.
- Sonar is very useful. While a sub is submerged, it relies on sonar to maintain sight of its surroundings. Sometimes an SS player will attempt to replace his sonar with an engineer, but this is very risky and not recommended. Without a sonar man, you can only see about a sub's length away in any direction while submerged.
- The difference between a good sonar man and a bad one is small. Having one at all is about 75% as good as having a good one. Look for a sonar man with decent (13+) potential and good repair and restore (11/11+). Class him to support at level 12, and to 2nd sonar as late as you can--they lose repair/restore growth and gain very little potential when you class them from support to 2nd sonar. Basically, keep him as a support until you're ready to start using U-boats. You will still have enough sonar range to spot ships before you're ready to attack them.
- If you want to focus exclusively on ASW, then consider using a boosted +15 or +16 sonar man classed on time, to give you a small edge on spotting enemy SS.
- Any support slots that your planesman and sonar are not filling should be used for engineers. This is optional, but recommended.



About the BO:

- Potential is not important for an SS BO. It is useful for gunship BOs, since it extends your aiming guidelines, however you do not need extra guideline length for a submarine. If anything, you want repair/restore stats, however I strongly recommend not using any crew on your BO, which means base stats are not important at all.
- Because potential is not important, and because unclassed sailors earn experience faster, you do not want to class your sailor into a BO on time (but make sure to set his nation at level 12, so he doesn't get stuck as a neutral sailor).
- Class your BO when you're ready to start using subs. You can start at level 37 with the SS1, but consider starting with the SS2 or even the SS3. (See "about the ships" below) You will miss the weaker subs and your crew will reach the SS3's level sooner this way.
- Remove ALL the crew from your BO right from level 1. See the "about weight" section below for details.



About weight:

- If you keep your crew full with rookies in addition to their experts and veterans, eventually they will become too heavy to all fit into your sub. It may not happen until SS3 or SS4, but it will happen.
- Veterans are for life. Rookies can become experts, and the only way to remove experts is to try to promote them to veterans and hope the promotion fails.
- Some functions your crew perform have caps for how much stats can be applied to them, and some do not. Because planesman, engineer and repair functions don't completely cap, you will want to cut crew from other sailors to keep the total weight within your ship's limits.
- The lowest-priority sailor in terms of what his stats do is your BO. Keep him empty; once he picks up veterans, they'll always be there and you will never get that weight back.


About the ships:

- The SS1 has a very short air supply, meaning you cannot stay submerged for long. It is a very weak sub. If you have the patience, you can level your crew and BO to 46 (the SS2's level) using your other BO on gunships. This means you can keep your sonar man unclassed for even longer, making your later-level subs have even better repair rates and soft defense values than if you started at level 37 with the SS1. It will also avoid the frustration of being forced to level your SS BO in such a weak sub.
- The SS5 has not (as of 2011-09-13) been released yet. Expect details to change. This guide will not be the first place to report new changes, so if you're keen on recent events, check the test server forum.

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 12:55 PST


Invinciblor
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  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 14:34 PST


OttoReinhold
Originally Posted by Invinciblor

- You want two sailors with a high torpedo stat (12+).

No. If you plan your crew very carefully you don't want a sailor with high torpedo stat. Well, it doesn't hurt. But what you really want is a sailor with good repair and restore stat. Why? Because, as you write only 1 line later, torpedo ability caps relatively fast even with terrible torpedo stat. Repair and restore on the other hand don't and are especially difficult to get with subs and their limited amount of available crew slots (not talking about the unreleased SS5 here). The same applies to sonar man and BO basically.

The real difficulty is to calculate the future skeletonizing of your sailors into your initial crew setup. But keep in mind that things could change in the future. Especially classes that have upgrades in planning can always be prone to balancing. So the more extreme you plan on crew setup, the more likely it can be a future change might end up like egg on your face. Many CV drivers had this problem last year. ;)

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 14:58 PST


Eradicator1
Originally Posted by Invinciblor

About the BO:
avoid getting lots of vets on your BO.

...

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 15:07 PST


Invinciblor
Originally Posted by OttoReinhold

Originally Posted by Invinciblor

- You want two sailors with a high torpedo stat (12+).

No. If you plan your crew very carefully you don't want a sailor with high torpedo stat. Well, it doesn't hurt. But what you really want is a sailor with good repair and restore stat. Why? Because, as you write only 1 line later, torpedo ability caps relatively fast even with terrible torpedo stat. Repair and restore on the other hand don't and are especially difficult to get with subs and their limited amount of available crew slots (not talking about the unreleased SS5 here). The same applies to sonar man and BO basically.

Well, BOs will always have their original growth values for repair/restore. Sonar men lose it all as they class up (and end up in the negative by L69), so it's only worth caring about if you plan to delay class as support to roughly L45 or more. Torpedo men, on the other hand, should not be delay classed and will get -9 to both repair and restore. Unless you're on the test server with a 12 base in everything, torpedo man contributions to repair/restore aren't worth worrying about.

A higher torpedo stat means less crew to cap means less weight on the sailors with the lowest repair/restore values, means more weight to put on the sailors with higher repair/restore values. You can reach the cap with a +10, but it won't be as skinny as a capped +12.

Originally Posted by OttoReinhold

The real difficulty is to calculate the future skeletonizing of your sailors into your initial crew setup. But keep in mind that things could change in the future. Especially classes that have upgrades in planning can always be prone to balancing. So the more extreme you plan on crew setup, the more likely it can be a future change might end up like egg on your face. Many CV drivers had this problem last year. ;)


A valuable point, but a little beyond the scope of the guide to do the actual calculations. I just want to create awareness of these issues for new players, not do their math for them. Other threads already cover the numbers better than I could.

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 15:09 PST


Invinciblor
Originally Posted by Eradicator1

Originally Posted by Invinciblor

About the BO:
avoid getting lots of vets on your BO.

...


Some people end up with 100 vets on their BO, and then later they want to trim him and can't. A L120 sailor with 100 vets and nothing else is going to have an awful efficiency, and a lot more weight than a sailor with 1 rookie and nothing else.

Some people like vets on their BO. By the time you're in an SS3, you know what you want to do and aren't at the point where you need a beginner's guide like this one. I trust that those people know enough to make their own decisions; if you want vets on your BO then, you can add them. If you don't, you can't remove them.

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 15:42 PST


bloodsky
As long as you continue to work on it, Stickied.

If you edit the first post the sticky will be removed in that case submit a ticket under forum.

Good work, keep it up!

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 18:06 PST


Invinciblor
Originally Posted by bloodsky

As long as you continue to work on it, Stickied.

If you edit the first post the sticky will be removed in that case submit a ticket under forum.

Good work, keep it up!


Awesome, thanks!

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 12. 2011 19:29 PST


Invinciblor
Originally Posted by Invinciblor

Originally Posted by OttoReinhold

Originally Posted by Invinciblor

- You want two sailors with a high torpedo stat (12+).

No...

Yes...


This was nagging at me all afternoon while I was working. I did some of the math to make sure I wasn't wrong, and by math, I mean I plugged numbers into SK_Bismark's spreadsheet. Let's say we can roll a sailor with 11 torpedo, 11 repair and 11 restore.

Case A1: no delay-classing, 100 vets, 11 torpedo, 11 repair/restore:
- Level 58: We pass the reload cap with a full crew of 100 vets and 337 experts (no rookies). Repair/restore true ability (R/R TA) = 190k, soft defence (SD) = 22.
- Level 80: The minimum crew for torpedo reload cap (MTRC) is 100/322/0. R/R TA = 150k, SD = 17
- Level 100: MTRC crew = 100/316/0, R/R TA = 130k, SD = 15
- Level 120: MTRC crew = 100/312/0, R/R TA = 120k, SD = 14

Case B1: delay-classed between KM national and armament sailor, until level 44, 100 vets, 11 torpedo, 11 repair/restore:
- Level 69: We pass the reload cap with a full crew of 100 vets and 370 experts. R/R TA = 420k, SD = 49
- Level 80: MTRC crew = 100/354/0, R/R TA = 350k, SD = 41
- Level 100: MTRC crew = 100/339/0, R/R TA = 280k, SD = 32
- Level 120: MTRC crew = 100/330/0, R/R TA = 230k, SD = 27

So it looks like delay-classing yields an extra 110k TA (for restore, that's 27 SD), at a cost of having 18 extra sailors. 18 more sailors on a skinny BO with great repair/restore bases isn't going to get you much more than 10k and 1 SD.



However, we can take this one step further. If we're delay-classing, we become more sensitive to base torpedo and less sensitive to base repair/restore. The reverse is also true, not delay classing, we're sensitive to repair/restore bases but not torpedo. Let's assume we can only reliably roll two 11's and a 10, and not three 11's, or we can roll one 12 and two 10s, but not a 12 and a 11/10 or 10/11. This, I think, is more realistic than an 11/11/11.

So let's look at the math from above using a more reasonable 10/11/11 for case A and 12/10/10 for case B:

Case A2: no delay-classing, 100 vets, 10 torpedo, 11 repair/restore
L60: Torpedo reload caps, full crew = 100/353/0, R/R TA = 200k, SD = 23
L80: MTRC crew = 100/335/0, R/R TA = 160k, SD = 18
L100: MTRC crew = 100/328/0, R/R TA = 140k, SD = 16
L120: MTRC crew = 100/324/0, R/R TA = 130k, SD = 15

Case B2: delayed as national until L44, 100 vets, 12 torpedo, 10 repair/restore
L67: Torpedo reload caps, full crew = 100/354/0, R/R TA = 360k, SD = 42
L80: MTRC crew = 100/338/0, R/R TA = 280k, SD = 33
L100: MTRC crew = 100/325/0, R/R TA = 220k, SD = 25
L120: MTRC crew = 100/317/0, R/R TA = 180k, SD = 21

So, at a cost of waiting up to 9 more levels to hit the torpedo reload cap (from 58 to ~67), you get a lot more repair/restore by delay-classing torpedo men.



Conclusions: (TL;DR?)

The ideal plan to me looks like 10+ torpedo, 11/11 repair/restore, delay-class as KM national sailor from 12 to 44, then class right to heavy torpedo. Trim crew down to the minimum for torpedo reload cap if you must, in order to fit supports. If you went with +12 torpedo you could cap at L120 with perhaps 40 fewer sailors per torpedo man, but those 80 extra sailors on the torpedoes will allow you far more repair/restore than if you put 80 vets on an otherwise empty BO with great repair/restore.

You're right, Otto, and I'm wrong. My crew is wrong, too. I'll work these results into the guide.

  • Re : U-Boot Mannschaft Anweisungen (SS Crew Help)

    09. 13. 2011 00:12 PST


aingeal
What you should seriously consider doing:


-Explanation of the planesman effect, and why it should be fully crewed or nearly, at all time.

-PRECISION: No s.onar = no sight range underwater. Including surface sightrange.

-Aft torps = Mainly defense against SS or ASW ship pursuing you. That one torp is quite good at fending off people sniffing your rear.


Originally Posted by invinciblor
- Potential is not important for an SS BO. Its only function is to increase the distance from which you spot torpedoes in the water. Your BO's skill adds distance to your FCS' finding range, so without any BO skill you will still spot torpedoes with plenty of time.


This is actually untrue. BO doesnt spot a torp farther if its BVE, its only influencing guidelines and therefore your own shells spotting distance. Torpedo spotting range is purely linked to the FCS used and won't change.




This has been stickied, therefore any player clicking on it expects reliable information, many new players won't look farther. If they receive wrong information about general concepts at that point, thats giving them a proverbial kick down the bridge right at start.

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