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  • Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 04. 2013 11:25

Recommend : 6

Benser33

I'm making this thread for some clarity regarding issues people have with the ship tuning system, now that it has been tested and rebalanced over the last 2 months and has gone live for players to experience it.

 

If you still dislike it and wish to see it changed or removed, please atleast recc the thread but better yet, give a reason why. This sort of input is valuable.

 

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 04. 2013 15:36


Stealth001

I used some of the items ( -3% reload time, Armor penetration +1, Turning force +1) and i didnt expirience major changes on the ship/crew/battlefield so i removed them after 10 battles.... As far as the existing content in the game is fixed, keep the STS, its the same for me.

BTW, nice drop rate of items, got almost 2 of each since the patch ;) 

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 06. 2013 21:28


unsthable

Here's where I draw a lot of criticism from a lot of players I'm sure, but I think the drop rate needs to be lowered for these items.

I've played 66 games since the tuning system was brought in (using the games played shown in the rankings release from maintenance vs. my current battle count) and have aquired 11 tuning items.  Maybe I'm getting exceptionally lucky, but from the sheer number of players I see with the tuning icon on their ships, I don't think that's the case.

I'm not sure if they're just dropping at a higher rate currently because the system just came out, but if I'm not mistaken I read that they are all intended to be aquired through the store but are available as drops indefinitely.  If that's the case, and they're dropping this frequently, it's going to really put a hurting on the intended effect of bringing in a little extra revenue.

I think a decent option that a fair number of people could agree with would be to lower the drop rate to something more sensible that the average non-premium player can still experience them semi-frequently, but have a slightly higher drop rate for premium players, just like the other % bonuses received.  That way it would still be available for the free player at a sensible rate, but provide more incentive to push for the premium subscription which of course means more $$.

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 06. 2013 21:54


Benser33

Originally Posted by unsthable

it's going to really put a hurting on the intended effect of bringing in a little extra revenue.

SDE told us (the test team) that this feature was actually not an attempt to generate more revenue fairly early on. It was obviously modelled to fit with their microtransaction business model but they said they didn't currently need extra cash.

 

However, all games of this business model attract extra revenue in two primary ways.  The more obvious additional extra stuff that can be bought, sales of items, advertising items, etc. The other, most often overlooked, method is simply making the game better. Give more people a reason to play, attract a larger audience, add features that increase time spent playing and players will naturally buy more premium, level their crews and buy new ones, buy boosts for new sailors, reach levels where they need even more experts or can benefit from premium ships. Simply by adding in a feature that enriches the game and makes it a better game to actually play.

 

That said, I think SDE failed to have met either of these objectives particularly well with this feature, by both scaring the community, being rather strict with the time frame we were allowed and by merely designing it in the first place... but, I did say that they told us this was to add a new game feature to try keep the game fresh, specifically denying they needed more revenue.

 

More to the point, I think the ~15% drop rate atm is fine. I've not managed to actually fill all the slots on any of my crews with the exception of my blitz lolboat (sight range, r slot ammo and turn force ftw!) I played the first day it went live.

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 07. 2013 00:01


Kilaenots

A few thoughts:

The tuning system may have been over balanced, if you are going to have this kind of system the items should make a noticable difference. This is not a complaint as I think I'm suggesting something that is next to impossible.

Perhaps what I am saying is that it is too safe, rather than balancing the items you've removed or effectively nulified the effect. For example 3% damage increase, this is a 1800 increase on a full monty salvo? not sure if it works like that but landing 1 shell more will have a significantly better result. I also don't get the point of AP on AP shells it kind of implies AP doesn't work already, this item would be good if, for example, it made HE work better on armour, obviously you were worried about this but it make it pointless as AP works on AP.

But that is why the system is not needed. As for the revenue, this is set up to keep people happy then drops will be stopped and it will become pay content. You are being very naive to simply take their comments at face value. THey are a company, they are run to make money this will make money once the drops are removed, thereofre the drops will be removed.

Now if this system is put in (as it is) it should have been credits only, this would have been a much better sign this was not for revenue. But we've already had this discussion so no point continuing.

Also I would have liked to see some more risky items, i didn't do the balancing so this might be completly wrong or  incompatible but my suggestions (may be pushing balance or even not possible but would make it a ship tuning system rather than an almost nothing system):

  • OH +1knt no change in base or % increase just adds 1 knt  - so L2 would be 23/40
  • +1 support sailor (UK exempt) couldn't have that great an effect as it is a nation trait of UK so is in game already
  • SS OH sonar ability for BB and CA (with sonarman on board) so bbs/CA can see OHing SS
  • SS run quiet means that sonarman will only work when OHing, no effect on FF/dd ability.

I'll think of some more I'm sure. I don't think these would be game changing but they would be more interesting and less safe.

 

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 07. 2013 00:28


Benser33

Originally Posted by Kilaenots

The tuning system may have been over balanced, if you are going to have this kind of system the items should make a noticable difference. This is not a complaint as I think I'm suggesting something that is next to impossible.

Perhaps what I am saying is that it is too safe, rather than balancing the items you've removed or effectively nulified the effect. For example 3% damage increase, this is a 1800 increase on a full monty salvo? not sure if it works like that but landing 1 shell more will have a significantly better result. I also don't get the point of AP on AP shells it kind of implies AP doesn't work already, this item would be good if, for example, it made HE work better on armour, obviously you were worried about this but it make it pointless as AP works on AP.

You might be right, but just because something isn't noticable doesn't mean it isn't working. Damage done was balanced in line with reload time and under the necessity of being optional. AP still works when applied to the existing AP shells, and as far as I understand how AP actually works, having AP on HE shells would have actually reduced the damage done to unarmored targets.

Originally Posted by Kilaenots

But that is why the system is not needed. As for the revenue, this is set up to keep people happy then drops will be stopped and it will become pay content. You are being very naive to simply take their comments at face value. THey are a company, they are run to make money this will make money once the drops are removed, thereofre the drops will be removed.

Playing as MN, SN and RM was free when first introduced, will they be made to require some form of payment to play as since they were added after release? Op Convey was free at first, they haven't made that premium only content yet. BB6s only cost 50m credits and 20m points, I don't believe any real money is required to purchase them or that there ever will be.

You cannot assume that companys that make money require you to pay for everything. Wouldn't be much free-to-play if that extended merely to free-to-download. I don't see the free drops being disabled very soon, or ever, just as stated to begin with.

Originally Posted by Kilaenots

Also I would have liked to see some more risky items, i didn't do the balancing so this might be completly wrong or  incompatible but my suggestions (may be pushing balance or even not possible but would make it a ship tuning system rather than an almost nothing system):

  • OH +1knt no change in base or % increase just adds 1 knt  - so L2 would be 23/40
  • +1 support sailor (UK exempt) couldn't have that great an effect as it is a nation trait of UK so is in game already
  • SS OH sonar ability for BB and CA (with sonarman on board) so bbs/CA can see OHing SS
  • SS run quiet means that sonarman will only work when OHing, no effect on FF/dd ability.

I'll think of some more I'm sure. I don't think these would be game changing but they would be more interesting and less safe.

Increasing OH speed only isn't possible, which we discovered during testing. Attempts to increase a ships OH cap failed. Increases of base speed were also inviable as base speed isn't a linear value but the result of variables and modifiying factors which resulted in some ships gaining no speed at all where other ships gained 4 knts. Increased speed was considered unhealthy regardless and was removed.

 

+1 support slot is immensely powerful, being almost the sole reason that almost every EBB is valuable. Not only would it allow every EBB4 and BB5 to level a full BB6 crew but it could add a fair amount of OH duration or repair rate to a ship. And arguing that something isn't that great because it's a national trait is not the best point you could make. Longest range, highest damage, fastest, lowest submergence and more are also national traits, I don't think any of these would be fair tuning parts.

 

Adding Sonar ability to BBs and CAs is an interesting idea... but, if possible, it isn't a quantifiable bonus and couldn't really be balanced. It's either on or off, although I suppose it could work at say 25-50% normal sonar detection range. It's an interesting one, I'll give you that.

 

SS being able to be undetectable unless OHing (which i think is what you're trying to describe) is another interesting idea, although to me it sounds dangerously strong and I can imagine it causing quite a bit of ire amoing players who have sonarmen just to have them made useless by a simple component. Regarding SS play in general, a review of all SS and Anti-SS defense is being worked on which could see some major changes, this is something I could bear in mind. Though, as I said, it does sound rather strong.

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 07. 2013 00:30


Arcaniz

Originally Posted by Kilaenots

 

  • OH +1knt no change in base or % increase just adds 1 knt  - so L2 would be 23/40
  • +1 support sailor (UK exempt) couldn't have that great an effect as it is a nation trait of UK so is in game already
  • SS OH sonar ability for BB and CA (with sonarman on board) so bbs/CA can see OHing SS
  • SS run quiet means that sonarman will only work when OHing, no effect on FF/dd ability.

I'll think of some more I'm sure. I don't think these would be game changing but they would be more interesting and less safe.

 



Yeah nice,

but lets focus on fixing other stuff first hmm.

I believe there are several issues to adress.

Tuning rates depend on luck IMO. In my first 25 games I got only 2 drops. the 10 games thereafter gave my like 5. It could be lowered a bit, maybe.

Haven't tried any tuning mods yet, and will not on CV/BB. I don't think I need any of them.
Maybe I'll pimp my AA cl/ca :P MOOORe reloads!!! :P

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 07. 2013 03:24


Kilaenots

Originally Posted by Benser33

You might be right, but just because something isn't noticable doesn't mean it isn't working. Damage done was balanced in line with reload time and under the necessity of being optional. AP still works when applied to the existing AP shells, and as far as I understand how AP actually works, having AP on HE shells would have actually reduced the damage done to unarmored targets.

I tried to caveat that I haven't been involved or even know if it is possible, AP is strange as I think it would be a great but it seems like it wouldn't work (HE with AP performance).

Originally Posted by Benser33

Playing as MN, SN and RM was free when first introduced, will they be made to require some form of payment to play as since they were added after release? Op Convey was free at first, they haven't made that premium only content yet. BB6s only cost 50m credits and 20m points, I don't believe any real money is required to purchase them or that there ever will be.

You cannot assume that companys that make money require you to pay for everything. Wouldn't be much free-to-play if that extended merely to free-to-download. I don't see the free drops being disabled very soon, or ever, just as stated to begin with.

MN, SN and RM are not only free because there is an event drop going on. The effort required to turn tuning in to a pay only is 1 person pressing 1 button to turn the drops off. Maybe they will be true to their word but if I owned SDE I'd play this exactly as they are and turn of the drop event probably in 6-12 months max. People wont complain as they will have stockpiles of items that will eventually be used up and can people complain about something 3-4 months after it is changed (rough timeframe for stockpiles to reduce)?

Originally Posted by Benser33

Increasing OH speed only isn't possible, which we discovered during testing. Attempts to increase a ships OH cap failed. Increases of base speed were also inviable as base speed isn't a linear value but the result of variables and modifiying factors which resulted in some ships gaining no speed at all where other ships gained 4 knts. Increased speed was considered unhealthy regardless and was removed.

Ok, I agree with any large increase but a 1 knt OH increase IMO wouldn't have been aweful but not possible (shame).

Originally Posted by Benser33

+1 support slot is immensely powerful, being almost the sole reason that almost every EBB is valuable. Not only would it allow every EBB4 and BB5 to level a full BB6 crew but it could add a fair amount of OH duration or repair rate to a ship. And arguing that something isn't that great because it's a national trait is not the best point you could make. Longest range, highest damage, fastest, lowest submergence and more are also national traits, I don't think any of these would be fair tuning parts.

+1 support is powerful, UK wouldn't be a weak nation without it.It could be a 2/3 slot tuning item. I wasn't trying to say that it wasn't great I was trying to say it wasn't balance changeing because 1 nation already has the extra slot.

I also think Premium and event ships should be excluded. It would give people more reason to level ship lines. There are too many no specific line ships now that you can level 1-100 easily without classing your BO (not powerlevelling just not selecting a line).

Originally Posted by Benser33

Adding Sonar ability to BBs and CAs is an interesting idea... but, if possible, it isn't a quantifiable bonus and couldn't really be balanced. It's either on or off, although I suppose it could work at say 25-50% normal sonar detection range. It's an interesting one, I'll give you that.

SS being able to be undetectable unless OHing (which i think is what you're trying to describe) is another interesting idea, although to me it sounds dangerously strong and I can imagine it causing quite a bit of ire amoing players who have sonarmen just to have them made useless by a simple component. Regarding SS play in general, a review of all SS and Anti-SS defense is being worked on which could see some major changes, this is something I could bear in mind. Though, as I said, it does sound rather strong.

Didn't put much thought into this but remember if you had morepowerful tuning items but could (for example) use 1 you have to choose between an extra support or seeing subs. currently there are around 3 maybe 4 decent items for each class so there is no trade really.

I only just thought of only being able to add 1 item or items costing 2/3 spaces but it would probably be better, as you could balanc ethe strength of tuning items.

I was and am truly against tuning, but it is here and I am thinking about how it could be improved, yes I may be pushing the boundaries of balance but the main issue with this making unbalanced or too OP is that it is pay to win, if it is free (forever) there is less of an issue.

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 07. 2013 04:14


Benser33

Originally Posted by Kilaenots

MN, SN and RM are not only free because there is an event drop going on. The effort required to turn tuning in to a pay only is 1 person pressing 1 button to turn the drops off. Maybe they will be true to their word but if I owned SDE I'd play this exactly as they are and turn of the drop event probably in 6-12 months max. People wont complain as they will have stockpiles of items that will eventually be used up and can people complain about something 3-4 months after it is changed (rough timeframe for stockpiles to reduce)?

They could simply turn it off, however this was their original idea and in the time frame no other way of aquiring the parts could be implemented, so it was added as an event. It is only an event by technicality, just like the 'Low level user bonus' event it has an indefinite duration. Almost everything is as fickle as just turning it off, it's a game after all, it's essentially just code. It's not more difficult to just delete entire BBs or reduce exp by 99%.

 

Besides, the items are balanced now as to fit if it was some pay to win system, making them all freely available allows us to make them stronger, since no one can truly get an advantage that no one else can aquire. Being able to buy them is just convenient. If this was to be some pay to win system, then SDE wouldnt have let us water them down so much. If they were made premium only, no one would bother buying any, too expensive for too little. Even if you did buy them, you barely notice them, and for your $5 you get 3 buffs for 3 days. That's hardly going to catch on.

 

Not exactly a genius get rich quick scheme to me. But I don't ever truly rule anything out either tbh.

Originally Posted by Kilaenots

I also think Premium and event ships should be excluded. It would give people more reason to level ship lines. There are too many no specific line ships now that you can level 1-100 easily without classing your BO (not powerlevelling just not selecting a line).

I don't see too many event ships while playing atm, though ironically 4 of my 7 crews are currently in event ships for leveling. Yet I work standard line ships in there too, most of the time.

 

They're BBs like any other really, PBBs not so much but I'd hardly expect SDE to give their moneyboat any disadvantage compared to normal ships. Even if they didn't intend to increase the PBBs value, they aren't going to want to actually devalue them are they. Giving them normal slots just lets them stay the same place they are now. If they had more slots than average, that'd be an issue.

Originally Posted by Kilaenots

Didn't put much thought into this but remember if you had morepowerful tuning items but could (for example) use 1 you have to choose between an extra support or seeing subs. currently there are around 3 maybe 4 decent items for each class so there is no trade really.

I only just thought of only being able to add 1 item or items costing 2/3 spaces but it would probably be better, as you could balanc ethe strength of tuning items.

I was and am truly against tuning, but it is here and I am thinking about how it could be improved, yes I may be pushing the boundaries of balance but the main issue with this making unbalanced or too OP is that it is pay to win, if it is free (forever) there is less of an issue.

While compoents that take up more than one slot is a cool idea, I don't see it being very likely. SDE might have coded it such that simply disabling a second slot when socketing a ship part could be quite simple to implement, but then you have to also distinguish which take up how many slots, etc.

 

Slightly better would be to reduce the number of slots, but then in order to compete with gaining the ability to access sonar on a BB, other components would need a boost, and thats when 10% ammo damage becomes a threat to balance. Also, i think people prefer to slot a lot of smaller bonuses than just one, or maybe that's just me :)

 

As for this eternal issue of pay to win, that idea was thrust quite strongly to SDE and they listened to us about how to change that and, considering what we had to work with, I think we did the best we could to make it as un-p2w as we could. SDE has earned some of my faith over the last few months, when I truly expected to be let down or chasing them about. I read their ideas for the system that they wanted that didnt come true, they listened to our interpretation of what they had made and the communities interpretation and I think the effort they made to work with us should have earned them more thanks and respect than they received. Atleast enough to believe in them regarding this event.

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 07. 2013 06:32


Kilaenots

If it is free and staying free (big if in my eyes) it could be less safe as there is no pay to win. I wouldn't like to see any of the items i suggested if it were to become pay only. THis "watered down" version is perfect for a pay tuning system which we don't have (apparently) but then I'm not using the free drops anyway (thought about putting the +10s dive time on my bb that would be awesome).

 

  • Re : Still Dont Like the 'Ship Tuning' System?

    05. 07. 2013 07:55


Sonlirain

Imho my idea for implementation was better.
http://fm.en.kupaisky.com/Community/Forum/View.aspx?num=15880&searchtype=0&pagecount=0&searchvalue=&sort=5&category=D02&page1=4 

Make them permanent items from the item shop you just stick to a ship while the 3 day drip items serve as "trial versions".

Of course my topic got drowned under foam coming from delusioned frothing fanboys. 

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