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Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 06. 2014 11:54
 Recommend : 0
kabukinoh
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I did search, but found nothing on this. If this exists in game, or has been posted before, please ignore.
Note: Shortly after subs originally were released, this idea was tossed around for some time, did manage a high number of recc's, but may have not gone anywhere.
Suggestion: Give submarine players a one time use item which can be loaded on board their boats which will "simulate" the sinking effect created when a submarine is destroyed, and includes the "So and so was sunk by so and so" message.
For mechanics purposes, this item would be loaded into either A: A gun slot, replacing the gun, but only working when the submarine is submerged, or B: into a support slot location.
Operation: When a submarine player is targeted while submerged, whether by HH or DC, the submarine player has the option to release a decoy. This decoy produces the submerged sinking effect, along with the usual announcement, while at the same time causes the submarine to 'drop off' enemy asdic (sonar) for a period of time. (depending on level, this time can be as much as one full minute.) The item is a one time use affair, meaning that the submarine player can not spam the use of it.
Reasoning: The idea behind this, is based largely in real practice during WW2. It was found, rather quickly, by submariners, that one of the easiest ways to make an enemy destroyer to go away, would be to release debris through one of the torpedo tubes. This debris was, in most cases, bits of wood, oil, life preservers, and uniforms...though in some exteme cases deceased crew members were also ejected this way. Doing so created a slick of oil and debris on the surface which would often fool the enemy to thinking they had critically damaged the submarine, or sank it. To further this, the crews would run the submarine "silent" for a time, playing dead while trying to limp away.
In game, this would allow sub players to try to "fool" enemy ASW ships, buying them time to move out of the engagement area or even go so far as to attack their attacker. However to make the operation fair, there would need to be the following limitations:
1.) Single use only (as previously noted.)
2.) Effect is negated the moment a submarine takes an offensive move, such as firing a torpedo.
3.) can not be used on surface, or in critical dive state.
4.) Though not negated, the higher the ASW sonar crew is, the shorter time the decoy effect works. Minimum time is 10 seconds, with maximum time being 60 seconds.
5.) Effect is negated if the submarine takes damage during the effect's duration. (Such as from HH or DC)
6.) Effect is NOT found on SS1, and only begins at SS2.
7.) Cost is enough to make the use of it not prohibitive, but rare. (IE the item that does this is not cheap.)
Thoughts?
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 06. 2014 20:53
Happymeal2
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My initial thought was to flame the you know what out of this thread. But i will simply leave it at this:
The current balance of subs vs asw is in such a state that adding this feature would shift the balance of power to the point that it is no longer even competitive, as subs would be effectively be able to disappear from the ships meant to hunt them. And because of the current fragile balance that doesn't really exist but kind of does is not in good shape, adding new features just isn't going to help the game. If this was something that was included in the rebalancing and therefore was released in a partially balanced state, then it would be just fine with me. But the way the game is right now, it just cannot be looked at as feasible.
Also, i do believe that historically, decoys were launched either through the torp tubes or some special launcher. The sub's guns were loaded and fired from the deck (possible exception being that stupid sub with the huge gun, i dont know) and therefore that would mean having to surface to use decoys if they were used through gun systems.
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 06. 2014 22:42
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PictWarrior1
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A thorough understanding of sonar (I was a RL sonar tech) reveals that this "decoy" only fools a visual observer. The sonar operator will hear the torpedo tube door open, the air shot of the debri, and will continue to see the submarine on active sonar. Remember that this game uses a combination of passive and active sonar, but is mostly active. "going silent" will fool a passive sonar to some extent but will never fool active because passive sonar is listen only while active sonar sends out a ping that echoes off the submarine's hull and returns to the surface ship. So even with the debri field ejected, the hull would still appear on the screen. Furthermore, sonar operators knew when a submarine was successfuly sunk by listening for secondary explosions which are actually the release of air from the ship's compartments as it breaks apart, as well the sounds of the hull collapsing under pressure. Releasing that debri will not produce those sounds so no amount of cheering by topside observers upon seeing the oil slick will ever convince a sonar operator that the submarine is sunk.
If you want to produce a debri field, fine but it won't remove the ship from sonar and if it is used in the "b" locker, it will take up the space of a torpedo that might otherwise be used to sink a ship rather than simply try to hide from it.
I welcome ideas like this, but please think them through and remember that the mechanics of this game assume that the sonar operators know what they are doing and are not relying on topside watchstanders to tell them how to do their job. We get that enough in the real world navy, I don't want that here too.
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 07. 2014 05:09
Billme
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what about some way to run silent like.....
no one can see you and you can not see anyone.
like make the speed 1/2 or w/e and no weapons work, but still be able to take damage.
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 07. 2014 05:39
Billme
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how about BB's having a sonic wave to be deployed? it could make the subs sonarman's ears bleed.
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 07. 2014 11:20
Happymeal2
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Originally Posted by Billme
what about some way to run silent like.....
no one can see you and you can not see anyone.
like make the speed 1/2 or w/e and no weapons work, but still be able to take damage.
They already have that, its called diving.
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 07. 2014 13:25
TG_Salihreis
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Originally Posted by PictWarrior1
technical stuff
Mate, most of the time your technical comments bring light into discussions and your real lfie experience is valuable, but this time your argument is wrong.
It's time for me to bring in my military history knowledge.
First of all, your knowledge and experience represents contemporary or newer generation sonars. It was impossible or very hard for ww2 era (a.k.a. first gen) sonars to detect a tube door/hatch opening. Second, when attacking a sub, ww2 era escort ships would drop depth charges like crazy, which would make them unable to detect hatch opening, secondary explosions, or other things unless there was a space between depth charge attacks. This brings us to the depth charge tactics. Depth charges would be dropped in "lines"... ASW ship would cross the possible location of sub while dropping charges. so, in the middle of attack, it would have been nearly impossible to clearly determine if a sub was sunk.
Also, much of the secondary explosions are related to compartments as you point. But, ww2 era subs were much smaller than many of the contemporary subs, and there werent as many isolated compartments like later models. It's not that they couldnt close hatches between compartments, it's that they wouldn't unless there was a leaking (I think current procedure is keeping -some- compartment hatches closed unless someone needs to pass). So back in ww2, there was more of a chance for a sub to sink without any secondary explosions.
And, the history tells us this was a valid tactic, and worked more than a few times during ww2.
P.S. You say "appear on screen"... first gen sonars doesn't have screens. Clock like angle display, like you can see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ASIC.png
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 07. 2014 14:23
cospengle
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I doubt anyone would use it since it would be easily defeated by pressing Shift+F1 or Shift+F2
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 07. 2014 19:44
kabukinoh
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Originally Posted by TG_Salihreis
Originally Posted by PictWarrior1
technical stuff
Mate, most of the time your technical comments bring light into discussions and your real lfie experience is valuable, but this time your argument is wrong.
It's time for me to bring in my military history knowledge.
First of all, your knowledge and experience represents contemporary or newer generation sonars. It was impossible or very hard for ww2 era (a.k.a. first gen) sonars to detect a tube door/hatch opening. Second, when attacking a sub, ww2 era escort ships would drop depth charges like crazy, which would make them unable to detect hatch opening, secondary explosions, or other things unless there was a space between depth charge attacks. This brings us to the depth charge tactics. Depth charges would be dropped in "lines"... ASW ship would cross the possible location of sub while dropping charges. so, in the middle of attack, it would have been nearly impossible to clearly determine if a sub was sunk.
Also, much of the secondary explosions are related to compartments as you point. But, ww2 era subs were much smaller than many of the contemporary subs, and there werent as many isolated compartments like later models. It's not that they couldnt close hatches between compartments, it's that they wouldn't unless there was a leaking (I think current procedure is keeping -some- compartment hatches closed unless someone needs to pass). So back in ww2, there was more of a chance for a sub to sink without any secondary explosions.
And, the history tells us this was a valid tactic, and worked more than a few times during ww2.
P.S. You say "appear on screen"... first gen sonars doesn't have screens. Clock like angle display, like you can see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ASIC.png
During world war two, and right up until the mid sixties, ASDIC wasn't exactly the best method of detection. Heck, it wasn't the prefered method of detection for the subs either. In practice, during the diesel boat era, subs preferred to attack on the surface at night, where their higher speeds and low freeboard allowed them to better escape damage. However, going back to the ASW point, It wasn't as simple as ASDIC picking up a target and then the destroyer homing in on it. The truth is somewhat shocking when you consider it. During the early ASDIC days, the ping which an ASW vessel got from a target would actually drop off at around 300 meters off the bow of the ship. By that point, the sounds of the destroyer's own screws, water turbulence, and even the temperature layers meant that the pattern (depth charges) were fired at the last known position. A rather effective tactic in the day for sub captains was to drive head on at the attacking destroyer, and then at the 300 m mark (give or take) to suddenly turn to port or starbord. Doing this would leave a knuckle of turbulence in the water as the sub went deep and ducked below the thermal layer. The ASDIC operators then would have a perfect target to fire upon, problem was it wasn't the submarine. This tactic is still in use to this day, though it's somewhat updated with the addition of noisemakers and better detection methods. Whatever the case, I've been playing since about 2006, (just recently returned) and felt perhaps the suggestion would give submarine players something to use as opposed to the standard "crit dive and done with it" where the sub comes to a dead stop. From the ASW standpoint, the idea might encourage more players to actually play ASW, since there would always be the chance that the sub the BB's THOUGHT they sunk with their hedgehogs (which for the record, were only used on destroyers) was still out there. Encouraging destroyers to fill the proper escort role that they were designed to, as opposed to the lemming rush to the middle and death by broadside that seems so common.
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 08. 2014 12:47
PictWarrior1
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Originally Posted by TG_Salihreis
Originally Posted by PictWarrior1
technical stuff
Mate, most of the time your technical comments bring light into discussions and your real lfie experience is valuable, but this time your argument is wrong.
It's time for me to bring in my military history knowledge.
First of all, your knowledge and experience represents contemporary or newer generation sonars. It was impossible or very hard for ww2 era (a.k.a. first gen) sonars to detect a tube door/hatch opening. Second, when attacking a sub, ww2 era escort ships would drop depth charges like crazy, which would make them unable to detect hatch opening, secondary explosions, or other things unless there was a space between depth charge attacks. This brings us to the depth charge tactics. Depth charges would be dropped in "lines"...
I've got to admit you're right. I did some digging through my history library and came up with a pic for you..
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Re : Sub Decoy Suggestion.
02. 08. 2014 13:52
TG_Salihreis
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Originally Posted by PictWarrior1
Nice pic mate. It would be better not to be listening through hydrophones during DC attack...
I'm neutral to this suggestion btw. Not in favor or against...
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