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Alternate Z-Plan
07. 01. 2011 18:56
BBpepper
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I remember reading an article awhile back about How the Allies where really shocked on how much raw material stock piles the Germans amassed during the war especially Steel,Oil, Aluminum and Copper.Now this goes against popular belief today but lets say for the sake of argument lets say those numbers are true(Allies Believed that the German had Huge stockpiles as far back as 1937!) Ok Here is an ALternate Plan.
4-Scharnhorst Class BBs with3 twin 15inch Guns
6-Bismarck Class BBs
2-H39 BBs with 4 Twin 16inch Guns
12-Hipper Class CAs
4-Project P BCs
???-DDs
???-U-Boats
Now say that the UK and France don't respond strongly or don't feel threatened enough to have there own Z-Plan or there Political system slows there building program way down.
My question is for all now knowing these conditions how would the UK and France contend with this Z-plan once war started?
regards
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 09. 2011 16:35
BBpepper
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Originally Posted by CLTwolverine
Even if the raw materials were available... the main thing the Germans lacked was oil for ship fuel. Lack of oil reserves were part of the reason the Bismarck/Prinz Eugen were the last major atlantic sortie by KM capital ships. The other reasons: Heavily outnumbered, Hitler's fear of losing another big ship, military focus towards the eastern front rather than the west, etc.
Points well taken CLTwolverine remember the german synthetic oil program (Coal to Oil) process could have filled the need for a little while at the least also remember this "what if scenero" takes place in 1934 or 1935 when Hitler could have cared less about the KM. regards
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 10. 2011 15:15
CommanderR
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Originally Posted by BBpepper
Originally Posted by japex
Ummm.. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, US buffs their Navy. US Defeats Japan and swings the full brunt of their Navy against Kriegsmarine. US wins?
Km was doomed that moment the war started to take on the UK and US Navy without a major surface building program was futile U-Boats alone couldn't do it.
IF hilter never broke the pact with Stalin He would not have to had fought on 2 fronts, In fact If USSR join the side of the axis, they would have won the war, The reason why hilter broke the pact with Stailin was for the oil rich fields south of stailingrad. Hilter did not relise he was not the 1st to try to fight the cold winter of Russia, many before he try the same taticed and failed such as napoleon.
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 10. 2011 23:20
BBpepper
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CommanderR Yup your right but here is something to ponder in 1939 or 1940 the UK was about to go to war with the USSR over the Soviet invasion of Finland had germany NOT made thier alliance with the Finns to Deter the Soviets.The UK and France would be at War with the USSR and Germany BUT Germany still Invades the Soviets in June of 41 how that for a brain twister? also would USA still jump in on the UK's side? thats a BIG what if scenero...
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 14. 2011 04:29
nunki
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Originally Posted by heatrr
The alternate Z-plan, Z-Plan originally intended, would have required the megalomaniac Hitler to POSTPONE the start to WWII. Instead of 1939, you may well have been looking to late 1943+. Given such a late start date, then one has to factor in what the other nations would have acquired technology and weapons platform wise.
Well, US had developed nuclear weapon by 1945 but I don't know if Nazi worked on nuclear bombs also. If WWII were started in 1940's then it would be an all-out Nuke Wars!!
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 14. 2011 08:26
gilroygun
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After Japan, third a- bomb dropped on the outskirts of berlin, or any major industrial area, war over?
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 14. 2011 15:12
CLTwolverine
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Funny thing... we didn't have any more A-Bombs. The Japs didn't know that of course, but it is one of those interesting things. We only build 3 by August of 1945. I think a 4th was finished in 1945. After that, of course we have 1000's made.
The three...
1. Trinity Test in New Mexico
2. Hiroshima
3. Nagasaki
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 14. 2011 19:54
Arrgh
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Originally Posted by nunki
Well, US had developed nuclear weapon by 1945 but I don't know if Nazi worked on nuclear bombs also. If WWII were started in 1940's then it would be an all-out Nuke Wars!!
Nazi Germany did in fact have plans for a bomb, but lacked the resources and time to complete it.
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 14. 2011 20:54
nunki
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Originally Posted by Arrgh
Originally Posted by nunki
Well, US had developed nuclear weapon by 1945 but I don't know if Nazi worked on nuclear bombs also. If WWII were started in 1940's then it would be an all-out Nuke Wars!!
Nazi Germany did in fact have plans for a bomb, but lacked the resources and time to complete it.
Wow, if Nazi had resources and time for a bomb then WWII would be different. Nazi would probably bomb London, or even some big cities in U.S. i.e New York, Washington D.C.
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 20. 2011 08:05
leaderwolf
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Originally Posted by Falcon91
Originally Posted by nunki
Originally Posted by Arrgh
Originally Posted by nunki
Well, US had developed nuclear weapon by 1945 but I don't know if Nazi worked on nuclear bombs also. If WWII were started in 1940's then it would be an all-out Nuke Wars!!
Nazi Germany did in fact have plans for a bomb, but lacked the resources and time to complete it.
Wow, if Nazi had resources and time for a bomb then WWII would be different. Nazi would probably bomb London, or even some big cities in U.S. i.e New York, Washington D.C.
Actually they were farther along then us till they ran into 1 major issue that the Allied countries scientists all solved. How to keep the radiation from leaking from the bomb. Though American forces did find a Nuclear lab in Germany, the bunker was heavily renforced to keep the researchers safe. Fortunate for the world today they mostly died due to radiation poisoning from them not being able to figure out how to contain the radiation..
solved : next guns
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Re : Alternate Z-Plan
07. 21. 2011 04:44
Sanitarium
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ok guys lets see the whole picture here.
The m262 was the first jet plane operational. the plans for this plane are dated all the way back to 1938 (i think if not mistaken it could have been even earlier) also the first operational missiles.
Now lets say that the War was postponed for lets say 2 years?? .. and if Hitler was not so blind to see that the future was in his hand to command then the results would have been very different. The war would have been delayed given the German army and navy the time to equiped themselves proberly. First of all Germany would not have attacked Russia with Tanks that were not able to counter the russian ones. Second thing the germans would have been able to complete most of their fleet with modern weapons (Germany at the time was the most advance in all areas).The germans had plans to equip their submarines with those missiles and if they had managed to complete even one aircraft carrier equiped with the jet planes what do u think would have been the outcome of the war? even if they stood alone against the Russians, UK and US i believe they would have had done much better. Also lets not forget the american bomber (flying wing) which was ready at the end of the war. They did not have a long range bomber during the most part of the war because of the ideas they had that they would not have needed one.
If the war was postponed for a couple of years the German War machine would have been more ready for what was coming. also lets not forget that Hitler never believed that by declearing thewar to Poland the rest of the world would go after him. he thought that the Allies would have stood still as they did previously which would have allowed him to complete his plan and be ready for what was coming.
My 2 cents :)
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