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  • KM Type XXI

    08. 02. 2013 09:02


Ultra_Dog

So I got the new Type XXI sub.  Loaded it up with my crew from the Type IX.  No need for gunner or extra torper.  Put my Chief Seaman on next to 3 engineers, left one open slot and added armor.   Could not add more than trivial amount of armor, even with one support slot empty.  Too low of DP space (less than Type IX).

Played about 4 games, gave up and put it back in harbor, unloaded all my sailors and put them back on the Type IX.  Done.

The six front tubes are nice if you want to put a salvo into a BB, but 6 KM torps will not sink a BB5 even if the salvo hits directly on the hitbox, so it still requires a reload. Without rear tubes, you have to stop in your tracks and wait for a reload. Cannot bypass BB and hit him with your rears. 

Lack of rear tubes is your death.  Anyone that gets behind you will eat you alive.  No gun, cannot even defend against even an FF if you have to surface. 

Poor choice of sub in my opinion.

Oh, and after I got back into the Type IX, I promptly sank several new subs, including Type XXIs, and found myself, as usual, the last sub surviving the game.     The Type XXI provides very little advantage and lot of disadvantages during gameplay.   Watching a TYpe XXI getting hunted by a Fletcher DD was sickening to watch.   Once the DD was on the tail of the sub, it was just a matter of time.  If you find yourself with a DD camped above you, you might as well just surface and let them sink you. 

I had an FF mess with me, I surfaced and drilled him with my pop gun and sank him.  Not an option with new SS. 

Same speed (capped at 34/40)  Same torps, same air supply, same OH duration with engineers, same FCS SS type III, same Engine.            

 

  • Re : KM Type XXI

    08. 08. 2013 06:44


ruza3cz

Originally Posted by Kriegsmarin

After some testing i can say that i am very happy with new km ss6 and is very good match againt other new ss with many tubes

Positive things
- Size
- Turn force
- 6front tubes new for us km ss users and i like it very much
- Torpedo speed&range 
- With no rear torps other ss players dont run all over the field , problem is whean 2km ss come behined each other than its starting endless dance
- OH time with 5eng is amazing i go almost 6min in OH

Negative things
- Slower crit dive time (smaller sub like XXI should crit dive faster than km ss5 IX model and we get slower CD time than km ss5 that suck)
- No rear tube make asw behined you in great position to stop you
- I will be more happy if more historic specs are on theat sub especialy faster underwater than on surface exapmle
- lose much more DP in crit dive i dont like it very much

Nf did good job in balancing with other nation subs with tons of tubes 

I will say ideal crew for km ss6 for GB/HA/FW will be sonar,plansman and 5x eng , and for SS war i will take sonar,plansman,repair and 4xeng

 

 

XXI is only short submarine not small, please look on weight XXI, IX, Gato/balao A-type, R-Type..., you foud that are rather same size of subs, bouth ingame and in RL.

To balance they booste KM T3 SS torpedos, hmm why dont do mathing with UK and IJN for M-type and Kai-kou.

  • Re : KM Type XXI

    08. 08. 2013 12:10


Kriegsmarin

Originally Posted by ruza3cz

Originally Posted by Kriegsmarin

After some testing i can say that i am very happy with new km ss6 and is very good match againt other new ss with many tubes

Positive things
- Size
- Turn force
- 6front tubes new for us km ss users and i like it very much
- Torpedo speed&range 
- With no rear torps other ss players dont run all over the field , problem is whean 2km ss come behined each other than its starting endless dance
- OH time with 5eng is amazing i go almost 6min in OH

Negative things
- Slower crit dive time (smaller sub like XXI should crit dive faster than km ss5 IX model and we get slower CD time than km ss5 that suck)
- No rear tube make asw behined you in great position to stop you
- I will be more happy if more historic specs are on theat sub especialy faster underwater than on surface exapmle
- lose much more DP in crit dive i dont like it very much

Nf did good job in balancing with other nation subs with tons of tubes 

I will say ideal crew for km ss6 for GB/HA/FW will be sonar,plansman and 5x eng , and for SS war i will take sonar,plansman,repair and 4xeng

 

 

XXI is only short submarine not small, please look on weight XXI, IX, Gato/balao A-type, R-Type..., you foud that are rather same size of subs, bouth ingame and in RL.

To balance they booste KM T3 SS torpedos, hmm why dont do mathing with UK and IJN for M-type and Kai-kou.



This is my test of game verison km ss5,5 on km forum which nead to be about KM SS and you bring here your view of history

Whean you asked i will say IX is long range boat for attacking far away from home german workhorse is VIIC uboat check hes size or VIIB
XXI and IX are same size but XXI is 1st submarine other are all underwater boats useing dive just to hide with XXI 2xspeed underwater  comperd to VIIC/IX.XXI could go underwater 2/3day depend on speed which can recharge in lesss than 5h with snorkel
and in game VIIC is bigger than XXI so in game size suck not only in SS but in all class
FF,DD,CL,CA,BB,SS = no real

  • Re : KM Type XXI

    08. 08. 2013 12:40


Kriegsmarin

Originally Posted by ruza3cz

Originally Posted by Kriegsmarin

lol troll can someone ban this guy from forum , why than RM Subs didnt have any succes or japanese? Answer is Commander for ijn case they didnt have sucess becouse they thinked ss is for defence porporse(high command fail) they also had worst asw so US make adventage of it(and copy km from atlanttic to attack ijn) but whean us come in atlantic they withdrew all subs from there , german asw was also best so allied ss could not come near , most problems face afrika korps with supplies bcs many escorts was incompetent italians

You say german uboat comanders dont have skill sure they had just a lot ships to sink  
Stop lie and learn history and here is one of many uboot action and you say he didnt have skill lol he hit in same hole to sink that big ship , comander of u99 also invented best anti conwoy tactic 
He sunk in 127dayes at sea in U-99 VIIB 39ships sunk 246,794t 5ships damaged 37,965t All in GRT  

 

(I thing it it Lie or you beleve to propaganda taht all gemany tings (SS, BB, Fighters, Tanks, Engines ....) was best but they lost to superior numbers)



i will just say lol get away from this forum lol

Whean you say it i couldnt resist to answer you

SS
RL ww2 best 10 sub commanders

1.Otto Kretschmer 47ships sunk 274,418t 5 ships damaged 37,965t
2.Wolfgang Luth 47ships sunk 225,756t 2 ships damaged 17,343t
3.Erich Topp 36ships sunk 198,650t 4 ships damaged 32,317t
4.Gunter Prien 31ships sunk 191,919t 8 ships damaged 62,751
5.Heinrich Liebe 34ships sunk 187,267t 1 ship damaged 3,670t
6.Viktor Schutze 35ships sunk 180,073t 2 ships damaged 14,213t
7.Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock 25ships sunk 179,125t 2 ships damaged 15,864t
8.Karl-Friedrich Merten 27ships sunk 170,151t
9.Herbert Schultze 26ships sunk 169,709t 1 ship damaged 9,456t
10.Werner Henke 25ships sunk 157,064t 

BB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUfN2hg8niQ

CV / fighters
RL top 10 ww2 flaying ace

1.Erich "Bubi" Hartmann 352 plane shoot down (top ace of all time)
2.Gerhard Barkhorn 301 plane shoot down
3.Günther Rall 275 plane shoot down
4.Otto Kittel 267 plane shoot down
5.Walter "Nowi" Nowotny 258 plane shoot down
6.Wilhelm Batz 237 plane shoot down
7.Erich Rudorffer 222 plane shoot down
8.Heinz Bär 220 plane shoot down
9.Hermann Graf 212  plane shoot down
10.Heinrich Ehrler 208 plane shoot down 

Tanks
RL top 10 ww2 tank killers

1.Kurt Knispel 168 tanks destroyed  
2.Otto Carius 150 tanks destroyed  
3.Johannes Bölter 139 tanks destroyed  
4.Michael Wittmann 138 tanks destroyed  
5.Walter Kniep 129 tanks destroyed  
6.Karl Körner 102 tanks destroyed
7.Balthasar Woll 100+ tanks destroyed  
8.Paul Egger 113 tanks destroyed  
9.Hans Sandrock 100 tanks destroyed
10.Helmut Wendorff  84 tanks destroyed  
Anti tanks and other vehicles are not counted

only confirmed kills are counted was many more especaly in fighters and tank aces
Sub sunken tonnage is in GRT (empty ship displacment)


For engines idk what you mean 

Now you type me allied top10 than tell me again "was best but they lost to superior numbers" is not true
Why than all top 10s in german hands????? idk but i think on top lists top50 in every class is sure in german hands,whean you type me allied top 10 than i will say which place they hold loolololol

Bye troll

 

  • Re : KM Type XXI

    08. 09. 2013 18:21


HBlitz

Originally Posted by ruza3cz

Originally Posted by Kriegsmarin

lol troll can someone ban this guy from forum , why than RM Subs didnt have any succes or japanese? Answer is Commander for ijn case they didnt have sucess becouse they thinked ss is for defence porporse(high command fail) they also had worst asw so US make adventage of it(and copy km from atlanttic to attack ijn) but whean us come in atlantic they withdrew all subs from there , german asw was also best so allied ss could not come near , most problems face afrika korps with supplies bcs many escorts was incompetent italians

You say german uboat comanders dont have skill sure they had just a lot ships to sink  
Stop lie and learn history and here is one of many uboot action and you say he didnt have skill lol he hit in same hole to sink that big ship , comander of u99 also invented best anti conwoy tactic 
He sunk in 127dayes at sea in U-99 VIIB 39ships sunk 246,794t 5ships damaged 37,965t All in GRT  

Please read firs what i wrote and Dont put on my keybord the words which I dont write.

 

Can you copy and paste part text where I wrote thas KM SS Commanders was skillles and coward.

The answer why RM SS was less succesfull is more coplicate then one world Command. The IJN SS doctrine make more primary to attack warships then mechmantships, the IJN ASW was niot weak becase of low skilled capitans but from bad tactics and no development of ASW tactic.

It is for me new that KM have best ASW (I thing it it Lie or you beleve to propaganda taht all gemany tings (SS, BB, Fighters, Tanks, Engines ....) was best but they lost to superior numbers). I thing thas retreat or nonasigment of US subs on antalntic was much siplier. The UK have enoght subs to counter AXIS and US need all they subs to its own unrestricted submarine varfare against IJN. (Or you cen see it more siplier the risk of sunk uselless 1000 tons germany mercmant sip (Iportnt from german wiev) vas much greater then sinking IJN merchmant ship). The KM ASW was only prewar stadart thay dont developed HH, Squid, HF/DF, cm radar for ASW, ASW airplanes with radar on board and what is most iportnat coopeation betveen ASW ships and planes. There was cold relaionship betveen Lufftvafe and Kriegsmarine. But the more importnat was KM have only costal trade lines wich low number of ships becase Gemany is (to today) continental econamy. (In contrast to UK and Japan which both are ocean economies with great need on mechmant ships).

Pleas i dot lie Im only speaking that grat number sunken ship doe not mean great skill. It depends also on defence and quatitit of potencial targets. But you still tataly overlooked this. Look how much ship was lost per operation submanine dirning war and how many ASW veasesls was available to defend merchmant ship, and you found that bes ratio was at the end od 1940 durig to end 1941, after that KM swich from ividuals to mass produce sub capitans. The probelm od suply to afrca copse is oso Germany dont have enoght merchmant ships and war ship to supply the must cooperate with RM. (But forgot sometimes tell iportant thing to RM for exaple the existence of UK radar).

 



First learn to write, Second the UK only won the war beacause of USA don't forgetn this.
Something importan that you forgot is the ENIGMA machine, this was the reason of many german operations  fail. As you said or i undertand about propagand, it was no only for german, british use it too. 

  • Re : KM Type XXI

    08. 09. 2013 21:14


leapnglzrd69

I too, had very bad feelings towards the XXI at first. Plasterd my feelings in room after room. however, as i played, i decided to change the way i was playing and try to play to the positive traits of the ship. I found it wasnt as bad as i first thought. Is it as capable at asw then the XI, no it isnt but with practice and a change of play styles, its not bad. The turn force does help compinsate for some of  its short commings. The extra slots are ok,  but I  find if I leave 1 open and add armor then add ship tunning item structural +5 and turning force+. it becomes quite deadly. do i ever under estimate the XI when i come across in battle, no. I am quite aware of its deadlyness and try to play to its weaknesses or lure it towards hh back-up from team. All in all is a decent ship that should be played differently than Xi. It is after all a different ship. You would play a bb6 slightly different then you would play a bb5, so why complain. IT IS WHAT IT IS! Good hunting.

  • Re : KM Type XXI

    09. 05. 2013 22:00


GHHalley

I laugh at the comment that you can't handle a sub with no back torpedo tubes.  If you change your style, you will find more tubes up front is much better (spoken from a SS5 IJN and KM player).  Shoot on gradual, use your spread to compensate.  Generally, KM drivers are lazy and unskilled.  If you adjust, it is a lot of fun to have more tubes up front. 


The comment about how fast the XXI was underwater is a joke.  IJN had a sub which went 22 knots underwater -- compared to 16 knots -- is significantly better.  Unfortunately, we didn't get that sub for the IJN SS6!   

    ON the point that the Germans were tbe best tank commanders, best fighter pilots, and best submarine drivers -- you are not comparing apples to apples.  There are reasons for those great numbers -- someone who flew over the eastern front against untrained Russian pilots could get a ton of kills.  Same for early tank commanders.  

   And for sub drivers you got to be kidding.  Even with a smaller ocean, more ships, much better torpedos, and 50% more time, the German sub drivers were never able to stop shipping into England.  By the end of WW2, the American sub drivers had accounted for 50% of the IJN warship kills, had for all practical purposes isolated the Japanese islands, even from shipping across the narrow, shallow Sea of Japan, and had peformed countless other tasks over a much larger ocean.  In addition a U-Boat was captured at sea -- it didn't surrender, the crew thought they had scuttled it, but the US Navy saved it. 

    Now, you might say that the German sub commanders were better by statistics, but they weren't better.  Even with all of the advantages they had early on they never accomplished what the US sub commanders did.  I don't care about numbers, I care about results -- the KM commanders ultimately failed, and the US commanders ultimately won.      

   The same can be said about the pilots and tank commanders.  Ultimately it doesn't matter how many points you score in a game, people only care about who wins the season.  If they were really that good,  they would have found ways to train their comrades to be just as good and win the war.         

  • Re : KM Type XXI

    09. 06. 2013 04:03


Kriegsmarin

Originally Posted by GHHalley




For most you type i will just loooool

Originally Posted by GHHalley

 
I laugh at the comment that you can't handle a sub with no back torpedo tubes.  If you change your style, you will find more tubes up front is much better (spoken from a SS5 IJN and KM player).  Shoot on gradual, use your spread to compensate.  Generally, KM drivers are lazy and unskilled.  If you adjust, it is a lot of fun to have more tubes up front. 




About NF KM ss6 , In my opinion is best ss6 so we agree in that one 

Originally Posted by GHHalley


The comment about how fast the XXI was underwater is a joke.  IJN had a sub which went 22 knots underwater -- compared to 16 knots -- is significantly better.  Unfortunately, we didn't get that sub for the IJN SS6! 

 

Which sub is that i bet that had so much horsepower that can be heard from japan to europe lol 

Originally Posted by GHHalley


    ON the point that the Germans were tbe best tank commanders, best fighter pilots, and best submarine drivers -- you are not comparing apples to apples.  There are reasons for those great numbers -- someone who flew over the eastern front against untrained Russian pilots could get a ton of kills.  Same for early tank commanders.  

 

Its clear that you know very little about ww2.Beter check names and you will see that was not all easy kills. Allied army was untrained in general comperd to germans bcs allies spent many less time on practice most was suecide missons allyed leaders didnt care much
I can type many examples but i will post here one ,other you can check by yourself

In April 1945, Karl Körner was a platoon commander in the 2nd Company, 503 SS Heavy Panzer Battalionacting in support of an infantry attack in the area of Bollersdorf to the east of Berlin, during the attack he located two JS II tanks. He destroyed the first and the second drove into a tank ditch when reversing to get into a firing position and was then abandoned by the crew. Advancing further along the road from Bollersdorf toStrausberg he observed a Russian tank brigade consisting of another eleven JS II tanks and around 120 to 150T-34/85's being refueled and rearmed. He opened fire with his King Tiger and destroyed the JS II tanks and attacked the T-34's with the other 2 King Tigers of his platoon which arrived later. Some of the fuel and ammunition trucks caught in the attack exploded causing panic amongst the tank crews. After Körner had expended all the Tiger's ammunition supply (39 rounds for 39 tanks destroyed) he withdrew back to the German Lines.

In the following days, the 503 SS Heavy Panzer Battalion was forced back into the defense of Berlin. In the withdrawal, Körner destroyed 102 Russian tanks and 26 anti tank guns, for which he was awarded the Knight's Cross in the Führerbunker on the 29 April 1945. After the award ceremony he returned to what was left of his Battalion fighting in the Charlottenburg area.

Karl Körner survived the war and died on 8 August 1997 in Neu-Eichenberg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_K%C3%B6rner

[QUOTE=GHHalley]

   And for sub drivers you got to be kidding.  Even with a smaller ocean, more ships, much better torpedos, and 50% more time, the German sub drivers were never able to stop shipping into England.  By the end of WW2, the American sub drivers had accounted for 50% of the IJN warship kills, had for all practical purposes isolated the Japanese islands, even from shipping across the narrow, shallow Sea of Japan, and had peformed countless other tasks over a much larger ocean.  In addition a U-Boat was captured at sea -- it didn't surrender, the crew thought they had scuttled it, but the US Navy saved it. 
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  • Re : KM Type XXI

    09. 06. 2013 05:10


ruza3cz

Originally Posted by Kriegsmarin

Problem which you dont see was numbers , germans was outnumbered in almost every battle

 

The problem of outnumbrede was i little more dificult, first from begin of design of Tiger and Panther tanks it was clear that tanks will be expensive and take long time to manufacture. That mean from begining this types of tak will be outnumbered. And allies used same tactic (in basic) as a Germany or Wermacht at the beginig of war. They use medium size of tank (abaut 30t at the end of war due to intronduce Panther the next generation of allied tan hve weight abaut 40t) (not mean nessery Meadium tank) and use combine force to couter  Germany heavier tanks. Also all alied main tanks (not ment MBT) has beeter mobility and much less need of alternative transport (ie. German tanks most travel on train not on track).

You use wiki citation of battle at Kurs bulge but I thing in wiki is some error in sovet numbers, especially i inmbers of soviet AFV and lost (by wiki they lost abaut 30% of all AFV produced in year but Germany lose only 1000 AFV). That basic numbers is abaut 3000 germany AFV and abaut 3600 AFV, and loses abaut 2500 to 3000 on bouth sides.

In another battle of bulge (in Ardens) the Shermans was able to travel abaut 300km and after that move thy start to fight (Transfer of 3rd Patton army). None of New wermacht tank have this abilyty.

So to the German tanks was expensive and dificult to build and also have better arment and protection but they were too much complicate to be buid in enought number to be compettion to allied forces or they was not enought better to defeat allien in numbers that the was build.

In very siplification Panter was 2times better tnen T34 or Sherman or Crommev but it take abaut 5-10 times longer to produce.

WWII was the war thet was fight primary in factories then on battlefield.

  • Re : KM Type XXI

    09. 06. 2013 13:03


Kriegsmarin

Originally Posted by ruza3cz

Originally Posted by Kriegsmarin

Problem which you dont see was numbers , germans was outnumbered in almost every battle

 

The problem of outnumbrede was i little more dificult, first from begin of design of Tiger and Panther tanks it was clear that tanks will be expensive and take long time to manufacture. That mean from begining this types of tak will be outnumbered. And allies used same tactic (in basic) as a Germany or Wermacht at the beginig of war. They use medium size of tank (abaut 30t at the end of war due to intronduce Panther the next generation of allied tan hve weight abaut 40t) (not mean nessery Meadium tank) and use combine force to couter  Germany heavier tanks. Also all alied main tanks (not ment MBT) has beeter mobility and much less need of alternative transport (ie. German tanks most travel on train not on track).

You use wiki citation of battle at Kurs bulge but I thing in wiki is some error in sovet numbers, especially i inmbers of soviet AFV and lost (by wiki they lost abaut 30% of all AFV produced in year but Germany lose only 1000 AFV). That basic numbers is abaut 3000 germany AFV and abaut 3600 AFV, and loses abaut 2500 to 3000 on bouth sides.

In another battle of bulge (in Ardens) the Shermans was able to travel abaut 300km and after that move thy start to fight (Transfer of 3rd Patton army). None of New wermacht tank have this abilyty.

So to the German tanks was expensive and dificult to build and also have better arment and protection but they were too much complicate to be buid in enought number to be compettion to allied forces or they was not enought better to defeat allien in numbers that the was build.

In very siplification Panter was 2times better tnen T34 or Sherman or Crommev but it take abaut 5-10 times longer to produce.

WWII was the war thet was fight primary in factories then on battlefield.



I mean on number of soldiers not equipment
Its logic if you are small country against bigest countrys in world to produce qualty tanks, if they mass prodcue cheap tanks will not pay tham off becouse will not have soldiers to use it and gas to move tham . Germany was bombed very havey and all oil facilites was major targets. Allyed bombers many time go to bomb from which just few return just to stop germany war machine (Oil) No oil no war

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