My suggestion:

A: Air time:
Buff SS1 air time by +/- 50%
SS2 air time by +/- 33%
SS3 air time by +/- 25%
SS4 air time by +/- 20%

B: Torps
Reduce T1 Torp damage by +/-20%
Reduce T2 torp damage by +/-20%

C: Speed
Buff SS1 speed by 1knt
Nerf SS4 speed by 1knt

D: ASW
Nerf HH damage by 50%
Reduce rld speed of Normal HH by 10 secs
Reduce DC damage by 10%
Increase reward for sinking subs
Reduce cost of normal HH to 100 creds

Jimmy please to try and keep this from a "your just a bb player" thread, now come
this a real chance for everyone to try and get there views across to SDE.

I stand by my statement and my suggestion.

There is no "simple" fix for submarines. The whole concept was so incredibly flawed
from the beginning that no simple fix will work. The entire model for submarines needs a
complete ground-up re-write before the community will ever embrace them.

My suggestion is a good starting point. And where they should have started in the first
place.

I'll keep is short and simple

Reduce speed, Increase submerge time, Reduce torp damage by just a tiny bit (Enough so
that 255 bulge will only lose half against full salvo torps)

SS4s are still very playable even with the recent much needed nerf,they just need a little
more submerged time/air to balance it out a bit.

I'm not that bothered by their nerfed resistance to surface fire,its prolly the way it
should have been from the get go.

I haven't played SS1-3 since patch so can't comment on them.

Increase XP for both SS and ASW play.

Current ASW weapons seem ok to me except for HHs having a little bit too much range and
doing damage to surface targets.

I like some of the suggestions here, but like Megadone, I think the subs need to be
balanced against each other much more than they are now. Typically when you hear
someone complain about a SS4, it's mostly about the KM SS4 with prox torps and
chain gun or the IJN SS4 with 8 forward tubes that basically lets them continually
shoot torps at a gradual level. So first, balance them against each other.

Second, more air time for all subs, but especially for SS1 and SS2. If the enemy battle
like gets pushed back at all, they'll never make it far enough to even shoot a torp
before they have to surface. I like rampages idea of battery vs. air. If you run normal
high speed, you get so much underwater time. If you run OH, you get less
underwater time, but if you run slower than normal high speed, you should also get
more underwater time. Maybe a -5%/+5% variable. In any event, all subs need more
underwater time at this point.

Remove sonar from all ships. Sonar should require a sonarman. If a ship uses a
sonarman, they get the use of sonar. Yes, this includes BB's.

HH and DC damage need to be toned down to where they were before last buff. DC
damage to surface ships need to be reduced by at least 50% and if a ship is running
at normal max speed (not OH), it should be out of range of all damage. Maybe that
means a longer arming timer to get it out of range. Adjust small ships (FF-CL) to
allow dc racks on fantail as well as T-slots.

Buff SS exp back to where it was (I believe but am not sure that this was due to a
torp exp nerf).

ASW XP needs to be increased 15-25% to get players to use ASW in the low to mid
levels (up to around lvl65). This needs to be done because it's very easy to get
decent XP doing AAW, yet there is a huge disconnect in doing ASW damage.
Shouldn't they both get the same or about the same?

Make subs viewable by scouts equipped with "depth charges". Yes, make depth
charges available to scouts (tone down the damage by 50%)and allow them to see
subs in normal cruising depths. However, make 3 depths. Normal depth, deep depth,
and crash depth. Normal depth, sub can see ships and sonar/scouts can see subs.
Deep depth, subs are blind as well as sonar and scouts to subs. Crash depth you
already know about, but allow very slow sub movement (around 5 knots) and all
blindness of deep depth is carried over. Maybe tone down crash damage 10%. Subs
can only fire in normal depth.

Last, if a Torp doesn't hit, either it shouldn't explode or it's damage should be much
lower unless it explodes within a very narrow margin of the ship. I suppose that
could be done by tuning down splash damage by 25% first to see how bad that is.

Rehor - How does this work when a level 120 crew is then introduced?

keeping in mind that a level 40 surface ship plays and tactics of differ vastly from a
level 40 sub.

My point being, "a level 40 ship plays like a level 40 ship" etc is a bit over simplified

If anything perhaps the subs tiers need a change similar to that of other ship classes ie
T4 Sub should be level 90ish not level 74ish and so on, therefore the crews are relevant
to the tier of sub

Balance them.

Make a level 40 ship play like a level 40 ship.
Make a level 50 ship play like a level 50 ship.
Make a level 60 ship play like a level 60 ship.
Make a level 70 ship play like a level 70 ship.
Make a level 80 ship play like a level 80 ship.
Make a level 90 ship play like a level 90 ship.

Structure a real ONF to take care of it. The main servers should not be a testing ground
for every small change; that's obvious from the flaws we have seen in this first SS patch.
If necessary, add polls (if that's how you want to do it) to assist with potential change
ideas. ONF works for the community, not themselves as a small group.

My suggestions,

1. Current HE damage to sub remain.
Reason: They were meant to be fragile on the surface. I don't understand why people are
complaining. Maybe because you guys can't hold down 'F' anymore and charge all the way to
the other side like a tank?
Cons: None.

2. Subs get 30-40% more air time.
Reason: Real subs can dive for hours, and to encourage earlier dives instead of rushing to
the other side then dive tactic this would be nice.
Cons: Don't make them too long; a sub (T4 level) should surface at least twice per game.

3. Subs go even slower underwater
Reason: Underwater subs use electrical engines, which are slower than diesel engines used
when surfaced. A sub travelling faster than a BB going 25 knots is just wrong.
Cons: None.

4. Subs will be undetected by when travelling at 12-15 knot or lower, however can be
detected by another at any speed. 5 seconds display of subs position would be seen when
sub has fire a torpedo.
Reason: Detection of sub happens when noise is heard. Faster the sub goes, the more energy
the engine needs to pump and hence the louder the noise. When firing a torpedo, air is
pumped at a very fast rate to push the torpedo out. This is quite loud, and could be detected.
Cons: Linked with cons on point 2 where subs get longer air time.

5. HH reload time, range, and space needed to fill increase (for the secondary ports,
roughly for BBs it should be around 5 binds of HH)
Reason: HHs in NF have the range of a 5" USN gun. Real HHs only have about 10% of that
distance. Also, a BBs task is to fight Battleships and not Subs. Those are the tasks of
ASWs. Increasing the space required won't effect DDs because DDs can carry more than
enough HHs for the entire gme, and a slight space increase would not change the amount
carried too dramatically.
Cons: In conjuction with point 6, they shouldn't be nerfed too much to a degree subs can
just shake ASW off. They should pose a threat to the sub, but not to a degree which it can
1 shot a sub.

6. HH (both premium and free) get their damage nerfed by 20%, and 40% for DCs. The nerf
should include splash damage too. They should not be removed under any circumstances.
Reason: Subs are too fragile underwater too. A single salvo of DCs can destroy a T4 sub is
wrong. Also, removing premium HH is saying remove Premium ships because they own. Let's
face it. You can shoot a destroyer quite some distance away before it reaches into DC
range. If you do not take care of the situation, your the one at fault and don't blame
others for your failure.
Cons: None.

- Torpedo splash damage decreased by 50%, by direct damage remains.
Reason: A lot of times torps pass under and destroy ships through ridiculous splash damages.
Cons: None

- Dudding will remain (and this applies to all torps, not only sub torps)
Reason: If you fire a torp point blank, you will kill yourself too.
Cons: None

- Passing under should be created for SS vs SS, in which torpedoes have a 20% chance of
hitting enemy subs. Also, other non-sub torps shall have a hit rate of 50%.
Reason: It is much harder to hit another SS with torps in real life (if not, almost
impossible). This also gives SS1s a chance to get into some real fight before getting
beaten by a higher tiered sub.
Cons: None.

- "Certain" flak guns should be nerfed. And let me rephrase what gun it is: "Flak" gun.
(In other words, it is meant for airplanes. Not for surfacing and destroying a CV with it)
Reason: Already explained and I don't need to repeat myself :P
Cons: None.

- Critical dive will retain, and shall be unaltered
Reason: A vital aspect of a sub, with the recent nerf. Better underwater than above water.
Cons: None.

- The more crew you have (in numbers) the quicker air would be consumed
Reason: The more crew you have the quicker air is consumed just like real life.
Cons: Make sure you don't have something dramatic. The difference in air consumption
should only be around 10-20% when having thin crew and a fat crew.


And thanks NZrogue for "controlling" the situation ^^ And sorry if this post is...a bit
long :P

I think free3play hit it on the head. If that were to be implemented, I think NF would be
a much better game to play.

@jimmyawsome
"1. Raise the level that you can get sonarman. 12 for sonar, 37 for SS?
**2. No more "team see" sonar for SS and ASW.
3. No more NF store ASW weapons.
4. Give SS some way to ID ships with sonar so SS can avoid or attack.
5. HH fuse should not start until HH hit water.
6. Slow the rate for critical dive DP loss.
7. Eliminate the movement lag after critical dive. Seems to be a 5 second lag.
8. Increase HH/DC fuse time or lower critical dive transition time.
9. Decrease the sonar radius for surface ships.
10. Eliminate the "DUD" torp.
11. Reverse torp speeds ie. long range fast, short range slow.
12. Another support slot for KM SS."

1. Meh, just as long as FF/DD get free sonar.
2. No. Just no.
3. I don't care really, but SDE likes their money.
4. You already do, it's called your sonar man.
5. Meh, just don't make it start at 2.
6. If they implement that, I hope it is barely a reduction.
7. YES! I hate the little time after coming out of crit dive where you can't speed up or turn.
8. No, you should be aware of the ASW around you and be prepared to crit dive.
9. We can only spot you by the time you're in range -_-.
10. No, it's the only balance to massive sub torp damage.
11. THAT MAKES NO SENSE! Faster torps give less dodging time, but at the cost of range,
slow torps give more dodging time, but get more range. It's a trade-off; just like NLD
varients of guns. L gets more range at the cost of reload speed, Ds get less range but a
better reload.
12. KM SS4 has a good number of slots right now. Unless you want to lose the deck guns for
1 extra support slot. Maybe a possible remod of the SS4?


EDIT: Forgot to add something. The recent nerf was too harsh IMO. 3" shells now do roughly
150 HE damage to subs. Maybe decrease it to 60% to be about 90 damage per shell?