@Jimmy

You really aren't portraying your points very well, and it makes it seem as if you're
fairly self-serving when it comes to subs rather than attempting to be impartial. The
one sentence that really gets me is

"Just nerf HH/DC power and radius and I can get myself out of trouble with ease."

This implies that with HH/DC, you are -not- able to get out of situations with ease.
Therefore, you want this apparent -effective counter- to subs to be nerfed.

"I WANT you to know I am there. I love it when you scatter and blindly toss HH at
me. I like the fact that I can dive one way and turn and go another and without
sonar you haven't got a clue. BOOM hit and run quick and easy. I love it when you
rush my team and I let you pass so I can trail your flag. If we can't hold you off I
steal the win by sinking your flag after you sunk ours and the whole team cheers."

This -entire paragraph- boasts of the wonders of subs and how you seem to face no
challenges. From what you've written, you are able to outwit and out maneuver any
threat that comes your way and can single-handedly turn the game around through
your sheer brilliance.

Then you post this.

"Taking away more speed makes SS more stationary and EASIER to kill. Just forget
about a speed nerf."

Now, it may not be what you intended, but your -whole post- brags of how awesome
subs currently are, yet your last sentence suggests that they -shouldn't- be easier to
kill. In fact, you just want to kill the whole idea of speed nerfs altogether, despite the
fact that many, many people agree that subs should not be able to chase down a
battleship. You're not being impartial in the least.

Yea, my invisible fictory boat.

That has to pick out of the sky which is HH and which are shells.
That takes damage to avoid damage.
That is speed capped at 34 knots submerged and room for 1 engy.
That has to have enough crew to fire 3 salvos of 4 torpedoes to sink a BB before the
twice-as-fast ASW get there an splatter HH in a 3 inch radius of where I am.
That takes 20 seconds at cruise to turn 180 degrees.
That can only attack from 0 or 180 degrees.
That has torpedos that are the shortest range of any weapon except DC.
That has weapons to sink it for sale at the NF STORE.
That have FF and DD sinking it with FREE sonar.
That has to try to sink a CV flag with sonar and sustained overheat of 40 knots.
That post nerf is spotted on the surface and vaporized by BB half the map away.

Yea dude, smells like.....fictory.

So you don't want a submarine, you want an invisible fictory boat.

"It is a law of warfare that a stationary target is easier to kill than a moving one. Taking
away more speed makes SS more stationary and EASIER to kill."

Unless you can't see that target.

The F-117 was slow as hell. But it was nearly invisible and nearly impossible to counter.

But hey. You WANT to be seen..

And the speed nerf wouldn't be an actual nerf as much as a "You'll be more effective if
you slow down". If you want to scream across the map in overheat while submerged,
be my guest. But when you die in the process because your battery dies, don't cry.

@Jimmy's latest response (which was while I was writing my first)

Jimmy, have you noticed how puny a sub is? Do you know how hard it is to land 1 shell onto
a sub pointed at you, moving, and with 45 degree guns? Jimmy, it is true that moving
targets are harder to hit than stationary, but all ships (typically) are moving. I like
the idea of a slight speed nerf mixed in with ramp4ge's battery idea.


Edit: The stationary/moving target thing only applies to when you can hit the target/see
the target. Submerged subs are neither.

Ramp4ge said exactly what I was going to say on jimmy's experiment. Besides, That distance
is more than enough to reach the enemy BB lines before that 7 minute mark.
Personally, I think that the nerf should have only affected SS3 and SS4. I had no problems
with SS1 and no problems with SS2 (except Junsen). It was SS3 and SS4 where the problems
start for me. Now with the nerf affecting everyone, SS4 and 3 are relatively unaffected
whereas SS1 and to a lesser extent SS2 are screwed.

"Yes, you'll be slower."

NO SS will not be slower. You just got an HE nerf and now you want a speed nerf?

The objective has changed since the CV only flagship. I could care less about BB and
unless one comes in my target range on the way to sinking the flagship I don't bother
with them. I want the same shot at sinking the flag as every other level 98 crew has.
So what if my SS4 is in the mid to late 70's of availabilty at current speeds you cant get
to the back of the map until your crew is in the late 80's level early 90's.

I play SS to go look for action not wait around for it. If I wanted to wait around I would
play ASW. Speed gets you in clean and speed gets you out clean. I don't have a
problem staying undetected now so what is the point of making me more undetectable?
Just nerf HH/DC power and radius and I can get myself out of trouble with ease.

You complained us off the surface and now we have useless guns, and empty gun slots.

I WANT you to know I am there. I love it when you scatter and blindly toss HH at me. I
like the fact that I can dive one way and turn and go another and without sonar you
haven't got a clue. BOOM hit and run quick and easy. I love it when you rush my team
and I let you pass so I can trail your flag. If we can't hold you off I steal the win by
sinking your flag after you sunk ours and the whole team cheers.

It is a law of warfare that a stationary target is easier to kill than a moving one. Taking
away more speed makes SS more stationary and EASIER to kill.

Just forget about a speed nerf.

"the problem now is HH hurt alot and we have to surface"

And my suggestion deals with this in a way that I predict will be effective for the
skilled ASW player and beneficial to the SS player as well, since it won't be the spam-
in-the-general-direction-fest it is now.

"how do you survive in a sub after half your dp is gone and you have 10 secs of air
left"

Same way you survive in a BB when you're in the yellow and have no overheat left.
You probably won't. The key is to not let that happen, which is what my suggestion
focuses on. More time submerged, less detection, at the sacrifice of speed (Tho
speed is still an option if you want to sacrifice for it). ASW is also adjusted.

It's funny how you're under the impression that because you didn't see the name
"Ramp4ge" on the screen, you weren't fighting me in a sub.

Honestly, how many vets do you know that have 1 account and only 1 account?

I've got 3, that are mine, and have separate focuses. My main, one with a CV5, one
with the SS crews.

And if you actually go back in time to 2007 when subs were released, you'll see that I
was one of the only ones saying "Wait and see how they play out."..

i suggest making submarines as big as bb so the real BB can hit them easier
-- perhaps make all of the subs hull on the surface too when they are surfaced
-- give bb magnetic shells

lol

i dive everygame in first 30 secs so they dont see me...

the problem now is HH hurt alot and we have to surface

so tell me mr know it all ramp4age

how do you survive in a sub after half your dp is gone and you have 10 secs of air
left

you get a few seconds before a shell hits near your ship and cripples your sub so it
cant dive

then your dead....

i am one of the best sub players out there (along with humberto and system
starluck and a few other skilled players)... you comment like you think you are yet
you are not...i dont see you fighting my sub out there... if you were...yould have no
chance

i dont remember fighting you in subs since they came out...and i was out there
everyday...

btw your last post is very accurate... its not hypothetical either because i wrote
almsot the same thing a year ago on how to play subs...must have read it from
me ...lol

but it doesnt last too long with the latest patch... now instead of a few times
surfacing you only get one chance to surface and get air...even in clouds or in smoke
spalsh damage and DD shells will own u.

Had you actually read the initial proposal, you'd see that it was an example based on
an SS3 (For mid-term) and would need adjustment for SS1, 2 and 4. Never did I claim
that those numbers should be set in stone. Yes, they'd need adjustment, and I've
never said they wouldn't. In fact, I even supported the idea of no movement = no (or
very, very little) battery usage, or did you just skip over that part?

Scenario--How I would (and always have) do it:

Game starts. You're at full battery. You start forward and hang behind the lines for a
moment, just to give times for scouts to go up and for the lines to start to draw
themselves..Submerge, moving slowly across no-man's land, while remaining almost
invisible to SONAR with LOTS of time to stay that way. All the while, you're watching
the lines and the battle progress, and you either set a trap for the enemy, and wait
for them to come to you, or find stragglers--you can almost ALWAYS find stragglers in
the center.

The scenario would especially pay off if the enemy was in an advance. They'd roll
right over you. You'd be in a perfect position to do a lot of damage.

Hypothetical, of course, but as others have said, there are a TON of scenarios this
system could introduce. Yes, you'll be slower. But you'll also be a whole lot stealthier,
and stealthy for a much longer period of time. And I personally think that's a great
tradeoff. Especially when put in line with the rest of my suggestion.

a sub is dead in one hit. It will not go under the water and it will not repair
fast enouph to help.
It only gets to fight around 3 minutes, because of air.
armor is worthless above water.
unless you have a high level engineer, it goes around 23 knots.
I do not think the sub is the problem.
The problem is most anti sub players want the ss4 and the level 100
players of those subs to be newbies again in a ss1.
The sub doesnt need to be changed. The changes should
come with the other ships or having a stradegy.
They dont want to reduce there strength against sub's because they believe that
they will not be able to compete against the other ships and planes any longer.
They dont want to change the armor, guns, and ability to detect. They wont
ask other players who can take down subs easily to help against subs or to
follow them around.

my suggestion is to create rooms just for bb players. Or have the gameplay
changed so that players that do not want to fight subs can be involved.