Actually, I think that splash/dud for torpedoes should be changed in a very different way.

Splash damage will be reduced by 50%, however to compensate:

Dud rate is reduced for regular speed torpedoes. Successful hit rate at 80%
Dud rate for high-speed is still 70%

IF the torpedo duds and passes through a zone in the middle of an enemy ship about half
the ship's length, it should do critical damage. This simulates a magnetic pistol
detonating under the keel of a ship. This should crack DDs and FFs in half instantly
regardless of bulge, and only MAX bulged CLs should survive. CAs, CVs, and BBs should take
80% of the torpedo damage, minus a factor of the bulkhead armor (simulating destruction of
ship interior).

Dud torpedoes always detonate at the end of their effective range, but about 30% of duds
should detonate prematurely, including the chance to detonate in front of the sub doing
minor damage.

1) Keep submarines fragile on the surface. Their advantage does not lie on the
surface, their advantage lies beneath the surface.
***TRUE, except now we have gun slots and guns that are completely useless post
patch. What to do with two usless gun slots and 3 20mm guns.

2) Remove "Air" all together and replace "Air" with "Battery". Tie in the time you can
stay submerged with how fast you go, and make it proportionate. The faster you go
submerged, the faster your battery is used up. A sub skipper who is smart and
manages their speed/times their attacks well can stay under for a very long time. But
a sub skipper who is retarded and fictories across the map will end up forced to teh
surface very quickly. And dead.
***An easier fix would be to have all SS 1-4 all nations lose air at the same rate.
The advantage would then be with the higher level planesman's ability to "scoop up" air
faster and minimize exposed surface time. The effective SS driver would then have to
prepostion himself a set distance from the target "scoop" some air rapidly like divers
and either attack and/or retreat. Subs could pop up anywhere on the map and dive
immediately at the start of the game. The trick will then be to spot the sub
grabbing air with a scout or BO range and then track the submerged SS with sonar
giving a G E N E R A L location. More experienced players can set traps for the noobies
because if they attempt to rush EVERYONE will know how far you can get before you
run out of air.

3) Similar to the above, tie in SONAR effectiveness with the sub's under-water speed.
A slow-moving sub will be harder to detect then one that is moving faster, and will
require the SONAR-equipped ship to be closer before the detection happens. A
submarine moving quickly under the water will stick out like a sore thumb.
***Good Idea

4) Remove torpedo splash damage. Torpedoes should not provide reward for failing
to hit the target.
***Not sure if splash damage has to do with KM PROX TORPS.

5) Remove torpedo "Duds." A successful torpedo hit should register the proper
attack, not pass under the ship.
***Good Idea

6) Give scouts depth bombs, using the same script now as scouts dropping mines. T1
and T2 scouts would carry 1 depth bomb, T3 and T4 scouts could carry 2.
***Good Idea

7) Remove ability for surface-running torpedoes to strike a submarine. This has
always been a mechanic that struck me as odd. The average running depth for a
surface torp is 4 meters. The average periscope depth for a submarine is 10-14
meters. How is a torpedo running at 4 meters going to strike a submarine running at
10-14?
***Yes, and will stop TK if combined attack from SS and CV bombers.

8) Leave ASW at it's current power, but make HHs "Contact-only" as they should be,
but near-fatal if they do contact. Give Depth Charges the same "random" script that
sub torps had, except crank it up to around 50%. That way DCs have a more
"random" feel to them, and instead of just being close, you also have to be
somewhat lucky.
***Yes, but near fatal might as well be fatal because SS will be forced to surface.
If you remove forced surface and allow repairs underwater the better crew might be
able to limp back to safety.

I've never seen a DD of any level do 130k attack.

"There have been many, many, omg MANY Sub suggestion threads and topics"

NO ****...its the most talked about thing in years... yet it cant be in general
discussion?..pfft...whatever

its only the worst patch in nf history
totaly made subs utter crap to use...even a lvl 25 dd does more than a lvl 75 sub
give me a break

revert the patch and think it over


***edited for language (frfghtr560)***

@stargazer

"I didn't say a BB -can't- make decisions based off of known crew. I said that it doesn't
effect their type of play as much as ship type and level. Different ships use different
guns, and different guns have different ranges. The only time when knowing whether a
ship has an N, L, or D variant gun is when that ship is the same type as yours.
Otherwise you'd be able to -look- at an H44 and say "That's an H44. It has longer
range than I do." without the -need- to know it has L version guns."

It does effect my gameplay if I know someone is an epic speedwhore or is more reserved.
Also, it doesn't matter if they have my ship isn't the same as theirs. If I were in a Iowa
VS a Yammy, knowing if they use NLD with HHE NHE LHE or AP would greatly affect their
range and damage. If I knew he was using N guns with NHE, I would know to play the range
game because of his 45 degree guns. Don't think that small details don't count.

I like ramp4age's idea about the S in the waiting lobby.

@jimmyawsome
But your crew barely weighs a thing already.... It's not like you need the extra
displacement for armor.

@jimmyawsome's 2nd post.
7 inches is far..... It's a the better half of the distance from BB lines at max range.
Also, it does NOT take 3+ salvos from a KM SS4 to sink a BB. Only if the BB sacrifices
massive speed to put on max bulge will it take a good number of torps to do damage.

"***EDIT I really get tired of my statements getting shredded every time I post. 35 cap
is not fine. I have to leave off 6 torps, no gunners, and no armor to achive max speed
with a 95 BVE engineer."

You do know putting armour on subs is probably the very last thing to do. I really do. And normally
you would put another engineer instead of a gunner, since you are carrying no gunners anyway.

From my experience of sub playing (I have a KM SS4, US SS2 and MN SS1) the major
issue I have is airtime on the lower level subs. It would be nice to have the ability
to reach the enemy lines. Many of the above post have suggested how to fix this.

A few other suggestions I have are:

- When a sub stops moving while submerged, it would stop reporting its posistion to
sonar. The sub would be completely silent so there would be nothing for sonar to
pick up, or have it so the sonar equiped ship would have to be pratically ontop of
the sub before it would be detected.

- Air/battery usage would decrease (maybe reverse of how it burns when using OH)
when a sub is stopped while submerged. This would allow the sub to sit and wait to
ambush its prey which was the subs purpose in WWII.

Sorry if this is already posted but after 7 pages of reading my eyes started to hurt.

at cap speed yes, considering you sad your going 33 OH, means you diden't reach it
yet... BTW it's 40knots cap...

eatherway a speed cap at 35 wouled not affect YOUR speed in any case, but it will
reduce speed for other subs wich are cruising oround with 40knost speed and
1min++ time...

so in general, if you managed to do fine so far... 35knots cap will NOT change thet...
hell my IJN sub goes 31 knots and I do just fine O.o

cheers
Megadone

I don't understand the "slow SS down" idea.

My SS4 cruise speed on the surface is 29 kts and dive cruise speed is 24 kts. That's a
17.2 % loss of speed compaired to running on the surface. A submerged 180 degree
turn takes 20 seconds to execute. Submerged it takes 25% of my air to move at cruise
speed a whopping "7 inches" across the screen. I have a BVE level 95 engy that gives
me an overheat time of 33 seconds with a "jaw dropping" 33 knts overheat under water.

If I stalk a BB and fire the first salvo in front of him and if I conserve my overheat I
might be able to turn and fire a second salvo and stay with a 40 knt BB racing away for
the 3rd salvo and hopfully critical kill. Taking into account no misses, no duds, no HH to
dodge. Oh, and once you initiate an attack on a BB the word goes out and ASW are
tripping over each other to close in for the kill at 50 knts minimum.

SS is too fast?

***EDIT I really get tired of my statements getting shredded every time I post. 35 cap
is not fine. I have to leave off 6 torps, no gunners, and no armor to achive max speed
with a 95 BVE engineer.

Here's my suggestions/thoughts.

1 -- Subs need to be slower. Compensate slower speed with longer underwater time.
a) change "air" to battery. Batteries recharge on the surface, get used up faster
underwater on OH.

2 -- Sub torps. Prox torps are a horrible idea, and just reinforce "point/click and win"
Compensate this by giving same damage, but HIGH speed torps.
a) IJN torps, while still being 8 forward, Dud ( go through a ship) quite a bit.
this is the compensation for having so many torps. IJN is the "best torp nation" after
all.The IJN SS4 turns VERY slow as well.
b) Give all subs the ability to lay mines underwater. perhaps through a "remod" sub
with no deck gun and a minelayer mount. Just an idea :)

3 -- Subs VS other ships. A submerged sub should have stealth. Sonar and sonar usage (
sonar men for example). Inorder to use sonar, you "ping" in a suggested area, that you
think a sub is. You dont just "activate sonar and win" this enables subs to be detected,
BUT enables them to restealth and avoid the sonar. Obviously with NF not having much of an
underwater Z-axis, this becomes much more important to Sub stealth. A good submariner
would avoid that "ping" at all costs.
a) impliment this by having a "target" that you "fire at" with a sonar equipped.
Think the gun lines, but less range and bigger Area spread. Kind of the same way you
manually Dive bomb. press "." to target that area, press "+" to ping the sonar. the
diameter of the sonar ping is based from the sonarman that is on board. Reload time is
roughly 30 sec, lower with a higher sonarman. Going along with this idea, the "active"
sonar should give a verbal "Submarine Detected", like you hear when you have scouts or
planes (Aircraft in sight). That warning would mean that a sub is near, but not "spotted"
yet...thus you start the sonar Pings.

4 -- The biggest concern is the BB vs Subs. While the latest patch nerfed subs a bit
much, they DO need to be more fragile on the surface. Compensate that by making the Speed
slower, airtime greater. Give BB's the ability to switch T mounts from HH's to AA fire as
needed. Still need a sonarman on board to detect a sub. No free pass there. That means,
that subs can get a high degree of stealth VS a BB with NO asw set-up ( as they should)
and will have a greater difficulty VS a BB with ASW set-ups. The main issue that i
see/experience is that: Underwater, a volly of HH's 1shot my SS4....as they should,
unless im aware and crit dive. The same should be said for BB's that run NO asw. It's like
a BB with no AA, can't say anything about being Dive bombed all day. Its the individual
user's choice.

Sorry for being long winded, but i firmly believe that Subs are easily countered by a
smart player.

EDIT -- DC's need a tad longer timer so that DD's can get away without taking self
damage. Ive seen alot of DD's sink themselves sub hunting (lol)

Do not change the Sub level requirments either. That would cause more of an uproar
then the last patch.

Adding new ASW ships BEFORE the Landing ship ( that line) would help. Corvettes,
and perhaps a new DD or Nation Specific Frigate.