@snailgod

I've seen weird things happen with torpedo duds. Sometimes they all hit, sometimes
they all miss. When I play sub, I make a rule always to fire 2 torps at an DD or CL.
Why?
Because I know, I -know- if I only fire one, it'll be a dud and slide right under. Like I
said, I have no idea what the torpedo dud percentage is. Remove the duds, and nerf
the damage proportionate to the dud percentage.

Subs -do- need to be able to see which ships contain sonarmen. BB's don't need to
know that another BB has 4 engineers instead of 3 because it doesn't make as much
of
an impact on their performance or decision making. A BB driver is much more likely to
base their decisions upon the type and level of ship they are facing rather than the
crew its carrying.

@Rampage

I think your battery idea has more interesting tactical aspects than what exists
currently. If the devs -are- able to pull it off, I would support it in lieu of air and speed
adjustments.

I don't really like the idea of nerfing/buffing speed and air..

Which is why I like the idea of making it proportional to speed. If the sub skipper is
willing to waste his battery power in a balls-out dash towards his target, while
sticking out like a sore thumb in the process, let that be a valid tactic for him.

If a sub skipper wants to sit under for pretty much forever, while being virtually silent
and sneaking up on his target, that's a valid tactic, so let him.

The battery idea is more complicated, but if SDE put their minds to it I'm sure they
could make it work..

*Edited By Rogue

@stargazer

1. Yes, SS should not be able to run down a BB easily.
2. More like 50%. Kita torps don't do to much when they splash around you, only when they
impact you do they do decent damage. Shells do about 500 max from splash damage from 1
salvo....
3. SS1 now with the submergence nerf need some extra speed/air. SS4 needs a speed/air nerf.
4. An idea of removing team-sonar I can actually partially agree on. I like the idea of
the free sonar being only available to other ships who have free sonar and sonarmen
relaying the position of subs to the entire team.
5. If you think 1/3 of the torps are missing the ship and doing minimal damage, you must
be smoking something weird. Nearly all of the torps aimed at me hit, and nearly all the
torps I dish out in my SS4 hit. Remove duds at the price of a MASSIVE damage loss.
6. Only drastically reduce DC damage. HH is fine.
7. No, BBs don't know how many/how good other BBs engineers or reps are. Just learn to
stay away FF/DD and any CL holding HH.
8. Seriously buff it. I never make any EXP in my just-for-fun HH moltke.

I suggest the following:

1) Cap a sub's maximum speed at 35 knots. For SS3 and SS4, reduce the time they
are able to overheat on the surface.
2) Reduce torpedo splash damage by about 35%.
3) Increase the speed of SS1 and, perhaps, SS2 by a marginal amount, either 1 or 2
knots. Increase the amount of air they are given, but keep it in check. SS2 has less
than SS3, SS1 less than SS2, ect.
4) Change auto-sonar so that only other DD's and FF's can see the sub. If a ship with
a sonarman spots a sub, it will then be transmitted to the entire team.
5) Remove dud torps but reduce torp damage by an equitable amount. Assuming 1-2
torps in every salvo will miss (I have no idea what the actual dud percentage is. I've
seen none dud, and I've seen an entire salvo dud as well) out of a salvo of 6,
average, that's about 1/3 to 1/6 missing. So, for SS3 and SS4, reduce torp damage
by perhaps 15%-25% or so to compensate. Reduce damage by 5%-10% for SS1 and
SS2 if necessary.
6) Drastically reduce the damage Hedgehogs and DC's do to ships. Reduce the
damage range of HH's slightly.
7) Enable subs to see which ships are carrying sonarmen through a visual cue once
the ship reaches a certain distance, perhaps two ship's lengths out of detection
range?
8) Increase rewards and incentives given to ASW ships when they do damage to a
sub. I realize they changed this a while ago, but I've never seen a difference, mostly
due to constantly damaging myself with DC's. If #6 fixes this, disregard.

"Torp Reload Time?"

Is fine.

"Torp amount?"

I never had a problem with it.

"Torp Damage?"

Is fine, if you remove splash.

"Surface Damage?"

I personally think submarines should remain fragile, at least as fragile as a DD, on
the surface. Their advantage is under the water, not above it. They should be
weakest, and at their most vulnerable, on the surface.

""air" (or battery time) ?"

Battery should work something like this.

SS3:

Battery starts fully charged.

Full speed submerged = 1 minute until battery is depleted, full SONAR detection
3/4ths speed = 3 minutes until battery is depleted, 3/4ths SONAR detection
1/2 speed = 5 minutes until battery is depleted, 1/2 SONAR detection
1/4 speed/Reverse = 8 minutes until battery is depleted, 1/4 SONAR detection
0 speed = 10 minutes until battery is depleted, DD has to be pretty much on top of
the submarine.

Battery would recharge at 1/4 total capacity every 5 minutes while on the surface.

Values would be adjusted for SS1, 2 and 4.


"Sub Level (ie T1 sub level 38 T4 Sub level90 etc)?"

As long as they aren't omgwtfFICTORY=WIN ships, the levels are fine.

Well I really like the battery idea alot and if it can be implemented then it would
really create a unique combat system for submarines.

HH/DC also need to be adjusted now that submarines have had there defence
values lowerd.

Right.

So from here on in in order to build a proposal the following is needed, Debate over,
specifics time:

Torp Reload Time?
Torp amount?
Torp Damage?
Surface Damage?
"air" (or battery time) ?
Sub Level (ie T1 sub level 38 T4 Sub level90 etc)?

Other info:

Keep this short gents - What values should this be (roughly) we can at least then gauge an
average or compromise and submit to the ONF team and SDE for comparison and see what comes
of it.

Be reasonable and open minded to posters ideas here

Anything outside of this will again be nuked

So I come back in the hope that further genuine thoughts and suggestions have happened.

Well some have and it appears that the general ethos for the thread has disappeared again

Will now go back and edit and delete further irrelevant information and warn again if the
same people keep derailing this thread or continue whining rather than adding value, I
will start deleting every post you have made here on sight.

Keep it clear, suggestions on sub specifics on balance issues - Not suggestive nonsense

Be concise (keep it short)

Be Positive, not infammatory

If this continues I will lock the thread and any subsequent sub thread like a forum nazi
if I have to.

Nobody's saying splash damage needs to go away because it's historically inaccurate
(Because it is). It needs to go away because it is a flawed mechanic. Why reward for
failure? Why give someone attack when they didn't hit the target? And on the BB
side, why should a BB driver be punished for successfully dodging torpedoes? If the
torpedo does not hit you, it should not damage you. If the torpedo does hit you, the
torpedo should damage you. Which is why the counter to removing splash damage
would be to remove dud torps as well.

Reward for success, don't reward failure. And don't punish success.

As for unforeseen advantages and disadvantages, yes, they may arise..Which is why
you FIX them. Unforeseen advantages and disadvantages happen when you
introduce a completely new playstyle to ANY game. That's why the development staff
needs to be there to fix the issues. Saying "Oh, we don't need a rewrite because
there might be unforeseen advantages and disadvantages" is silly. If there are
unforeseen advantages/disadvantages that are outstanding, then you patch them.
And you patch them right. Not these bandaids that SDE keeps dropping on us.

A complete re-write is the only way the community is going to embrace submarines.
It isn't uncommon at all for a class in an MMO to receive major, class-changing
adjustments or even major playstyle changes, and often they're for the best.
Submarines were badly implemented. SDE has a chance to fix that, and they should.
SS gameplay needs to be more fluid, more dynamic, more 3-dimensional, more
strategy-based. And in it's current configuration, it can never be any of the above,
and submarines will be a 1-trick pony. This patch, more then anything, has shown
what I've been saying all along. It's so 2-dimensional that any minor change needs
the whole system to be altered..and that's just bogus..

If you guys want to get rid of splash damage in the name of historical accuracy, then give
sub drivers magnetic triggers that allow us to completely bypass the bulge of a ship, and
simply detonate the torp right underneath it, where it has no armor.


And I still say this thread has some of the most well thought out suggestions so far:

http://www.navyfield.com/board/view.asp?Num=174930&Sort=D08&Order=re_upday&PageSize=20&Page=2&Ctg_1=&Ctg_2=&Ctg_3=