The issue of removing sub detection from BB/CV is an interesting one and in theory is a
dam fine idea however, this would ONLY work if the NF play style was one of some degree of
team work.

IF the ASW ships knew what their role was and it was fun, they would do it.

Ie for new players as apart of the tutorial games, add in a sub chase - seek and destroy
and equip the First FF's with HH's by default

extended air is great idea so that the subs dont have to venture into BB6 range
before submerging on top of a super fast enemy sub. Make it only FFs and DDs can
use sonar...... in reality a BB could not tell where a sub was let alone each and every
turn it made and that BBs CAs and above can't see the results of sonar.

few big things.
Last i knew its alot more exp to get from 80-103, and much less to get from 1-70.

Add high levels ASW ships, with some AA ability, can be either remods or make them similar
to event ships, available to all BOs of that nation with enough levels.

And to repeat another idea, set their submergence about halfway between current and past
levels, and slightly nerf ASW damage.

If you take away team sonar vision as well, then take away team vision from the subs when
submerged.

Just wanted to add somthing.


Theres no ASW/Support class right now theres only Gunship/Aircraft/Submarine
which creates a few problems

1.FF-DD stage lasts about 30 games with prem in GB2 which means the persons
who supposed to protect you from taking a 60-100k torp volly in the side is often a
new person whos hasnt played more than 10 games.
2.Theres no reward for ASW and you lose money if you fire more than 2 volly.
3.Few high level players play it becuase they dont get exp because of the level
differnce in ships.

A solution to this would be high level DD3+ECL clones at level 50/70/90 with crew
weight moddifyers. The DD3 wouldnt be 100% sharded exp but more like higher BB
where much of there exp is attack based, the idea would be that it would give high
level players a chance to earn good amounts of exp in a support ship insted of a BB.

Valid points from other threads from "Oppressor" and "Ramp4ge"

"If ss1 and ss2 get decent air, then they should receive a damage nerf. A level 37 to 49
boat (cl2-ca range) should have dps around cl2-ca...

And also, usable dd-cl for high level player. Not only usable in term of crew it can
contain but also in term of leveling them."
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From Ramp:

"In a level-based game, you CANNOT throw in a much-lower-level unit/class/character
and grant that unit/class/character the ability to rapidly dispatch much, much higher
level units/classes/characters. It just does not work in a level-based mechanic."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also:

"My solution has always been a relatively simple one.

1) Keep submarines fragile on the surface. Their advantage does not lie on the
surface, their advantage lies beneath the surface.

2) Remove "Air" all together and replace "Air" with "Battery". Tie in the time you can
stay submerged with how fast you go, and make it proportionate. The faster you go
submerged, the faster your battery is used up. A sub skipper who is smart and
manages their speed/times their attacks well can stay under for a very long time. But
a sub skipper who is retarded and fictories across the map will end up forced to teh
surface very quickly. And dead.

3) Similar to the above, tie in SONAR effectiveness with the sub's under-water speed.
A slow-moving sub will be harder to detect then one that is moving faster, and will
require the SONAR-equipped ship to be closer before the detection happens.

This will add some actual STRATEGY and VALUE to submarine play, instead of the
retarded "Dive, Fictory, Spam, WIN!" playstyle that they have now."
_______________________________________________________________________________

Now the statement by Ramp regarding level based balancing (as such) do you Agree/disagree?
If so Why/why not (keep it short!!) This is a pertinent point I believe needs discussing
and largely impacts how the sub should be balanced.

Do you view it as an opportunity for a lower level player to get involved without being
farmed? Or do you encourage lower level or new players into ASW ships and performing this
role?

How do we best do this? Or do we generally just feel that as it is a level based game and
a level 40 player should have to work his freckle off to sink a BB3 and above?

I would invite a "pro and con" discussion short sharp and sweet.

"This wouldnt work beacause of ..... 1) ... 2) 3)...

This would at least show some of the logic behind statements, however do this with caution
and please do not be repetitive I will be staying on top of this discussion and deleting
points of irrelevance.

Essentially I would rather mediate than be involved directly I can see both sides of the
fence and really just want to develop a solid proposal to go to SDE with so at the end of
this discussion, the main points will be highlighted and I will do a draft letter with a
combination of all points.

If "generally" agreed on (wont please everyone) then I will submit it

@free3play

NO not all ships cruise at 25+...
FYI added air time will give subs MORE then enuf chance to corner a BB, if you can't
do thet, then don't play a SUB

EDITED: removed a sentence or 2 to keep it civil :)

cheers
Megadone

i also add my posting from the main forum here

------------------------------
do you know, that a submarine is only a hull of thin metal ?
its not armored, it has mostly no bulge (in contrast to much bigger ships like cl/ca/bb/cv) and in reality a
lot of them get sunken by ramming (yeah, no real reality in nf)
so stop thinking about ss4, that can take alot of salvos from bbs and going happy around with green
health

ok, i also think, that they sink much faster now ( a little bit too much), but i would suggest, that subs
have more airtime and a much longer torpedo reload
- battle mode (sub cant be detect by sonar, rld of the torps is deactivated, speed down to 15 kn)
- normal mode (subs could be detect, torps reload, speed like now underwater)

and i would also suggest extra torps in external storage of the sub, which can be reload only in remerged
mode (2-3 loads internal, 1 extra external)
----------------------------

@Megadone

25 OH underwater is too slow, Most BB's give or take cruise at 24, if the sub bearly does
that speed at OH what chance do they have?

The idea is to balance not nerf them out the game.

@jimmy

point 8 needs work, the DC charge time, is longer than the crit dive time, you just need
to be aware, and you can dodge them, HH's are a different matter, you really have to be
aware, if fired from about angle 10 you can dodge them under that your pritty much dead.

Good stuff keep it coming.

Essentially what I have gauged so far in other posts as follows:

Subs should reflect more of a skill based ship rather than "point click dead"
This can be done by longer air time, slowing the subs down etc

Giving subs battery operation (will let Rampage explain this better)

Give torps back the Exp (to a degree) proportionate to that of the level and crew

What else??

P.s

Bring back ONF to test the patch and add a larger group of indivuals to test on the test
server to implement these suggestions. Due to timezones etc, I would suggest a 100 strong
tester team lead by the ONF group to provide a balanced expectation and proposal

Your welcome Haggles ^^