*A SW L1 still has a pretty good chance against a montana, even though the montana deals
more damage and has more range. Good luck trying to land enough shells on an L1 before it
gets into range.*

This comment pretty much ends your argument in my eyes.

Lets ignore the fact that you are talking about different tier ships, your example says
that an L1 which has:

- Greater Speed
- Greater turning force

Can defeat a Montana, which has:

- Greater range
- Greater hitting power

How is this any different (minus the tier) from the SN BB5 and any other BB5?

The problem you have is that you are too used to the BB2s BB3s and the BB4 that all have
great speed, great range, great survivability, decent spread (even at level) and great
hitting power. SNs real characteristics make the nation a defensive nation, as proven by
the BB5 and BB6.

Its like jumping into the H39 from the AD: completely different gamestyles.

Obviously the montana should win most of the time, but the L1 should get some hits in due
to its extra speed. I guess its time to quit banging my head again a brick wall about
speed being important (it would also help if people learned to read)... Each to his own...

I dont understand. What justify the L1 being in range of the montana?
Was the montana the sitting duck and dont even bother run/dodge,dumb not
to use AP?


First montana salvo would just pierce the armour and cripple the L1. Second
one depends if the montana run, or rush dodge and use AP will finish it.

"A SW L1 still has a pretty good chance against a montana, even though the montana deals
more damage and has more range. Good luck trying to land enough shells on an L1 before it
gets into range."

Considering Montana one shots even the bb6's. (everyone of them and I've done it).

You have to be the worst player in Navyfield History in a bb to not be able to deal with a
Lion1.

"A SW L1 still has a pretty good chance against a montana, even though the montana deals
more damage and has more range. Good luck trying to land enough shells on an L1 before it
gets into range."

Utter lol.

"Change lv 100 guns range to current lv 110 range.
Change lv 110 guns range to current lv 100 guns range? or change them to SY (or L2)
range? Personally, I'd like to see them with SY range instead of the current lv 100 gun
range."

>>> Most of us have agreed on swapping them. Lets swap them and then see what
happens.

"The current lv 100 guns range is below SY and above Monty from what I have heard, but
I have not tested this.

>>> Surely you should already know...

"Submergence nerf by how much? To H44/SY/Monty? or to between H44/Monty/SY and
Alsace?"

>>> To H44; It can't have a submergance advantage as well as range and damage...
(over the Montana/SY/L2/Alsace)

"Speed is fine, turning force is fine if the ranges are "buffed" on the 100 guns?"

>>> We can do those changes after the range.

"Oh right, almost forgot the cost increase to match with the other nations."

>>> Yep, we need that.

"Why not give it Kaiser Range, Greater than Montana damage, but 30 knots OH, 16
turning ratio and 20k DP, all in a BB5 fight (Extreme Example). It is going to absolutely
dominate in line fights. When it gets to 6 vs 6; Ships are still going to be able to support
it, and if it gets in a 1 vs 1 situation and isolated, it has enough range and damage for the
other stats not to matter. Yes, its nice to have speed, but what point is speed when you
get killed in two half salvos by a ship that outranges you and outdamages you?"

A SW L1 still has a pretty good chance against a montana, even though the montana deals
more damage and has more range. Good luck trying to land enough shells on an L1 before it
gets into range.

I guess SY range for the 110 guns is a decent compromise.

the main problem when defending with SY and SN BB5 is that their hangtime gives you
too much time to watch and dodge or get out of range, no one is gonna run into a full
salvoe bumrush unless its 3+ vs 1(due to nowadays BB rooms, ppl plays so passive),
which sucks because being "defense oriented ship" means you are only good when
your team is outnumbered or you have no support and you are alone north or south.
SY becomes good at 6v6 or so because of AA but when getting to be bumrushed you've
to have great OH and perfect aim and pray for a good spread which is so bad at lvl120
compared with other BB5s, I think Alsace is even better than SY at defense... if only SY
would have Y spread and dmg consistance it would be different ,_,

For the BB5:

Change lv 100 guns range to current lv 110 range.
Change lv 110 guns range to current lv 100 guns range? or change them to SY (or L2)
range? Personally, I'd like to see them with SY range instead of the current lv 100 gun
range.

The current lv 100 guns range is below SY and above Monty from what I have heard, but
I have not tested this.

Submergence nerf by how much? To H44/SY/Monty? or to between H44/Monty/SY and
Alsace?

Speed is fine, turning force is fine if the ranges are "buffed" on the 100 guns?

Oh right, almost forgot the cost increase to match with the other nations.

"Feel free to suggest an alternative in determining which nation has the best ship at each
tier. The SN BB3 or 4 are being nerfed quite considerably by my understanding anyway."

>>> There shouldn't be an overall best ship in each tier. I have told you that you can't
balance like that, I was pointing out a huge flaw in your logic.

"You constantly go on about range and damage, as if they are the only things which
matter.
Even in large BB rooms, you will eventually come down to 6v6. In that scenario, the ship
will be extremely weak, due to its speed and turning force and lack of AA, yet you
consistently seem to ignore this."

>>> Just like a H44. A ship can be weak in isolated situations and strong when
supported. If all ships are good in isolated situations and good in supported situations; We
will all have clones.

Damage and Range are HUGE issues in this game. If you range ships and outdamage
them, you can actually make it so that the other stats do not matter as much.

Why not give it Kaiser Range, Greater than Montana damage, but 30 knots OH, 16
turning ratio and 20k DP, all in a BB5 fight (Extreme Example). It is going to absolutely
dominate in line fights. When it gets to 6 vs 6; Ships are still going to be able to support
it, and if it gets in a 1 vs 1 situation and isolated, it has enough range and damage for the
other stats not to matter. Yes, its nice to have speed, but what point is speed when you
get killed in two half salvos by a ship that outranges you and outdamages you?

@Terriles

Because of the US 100 gunset, the UK L2 takes the US "Middle Ground" Role. Yes, there
are some changes that should be made to it. However, its not as good at defending as the
SY or SN BB5 imo.